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Yossarian  
#1 Posted : 21 March 2011 10:17:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Yossarian

According to The Press Association, the Government is to continue reviewing H&S laws: http://www.google.com/ho...Id=N0108771300628787848A As part of this, the review is to be chaired by the above gentleman. Who is he, and has anyone had any dealings with him either at HQ or more widely in the safety community? I have briefly read his biography and it appears to be slanted towards business/insurance risk, rather than an understanding of the philosophy and morality underpinning health and safety laws.
A Kurdziel  
#2 Posted : 21 March 2011 10:32:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

He also seems to have no experience of real industry being a pure academic and is American, where they have a distinctly different approach to Occupational Safety and Health.
jay  
#3 Posted : 21 March 2011 10:44:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

Unless we get something from the DWP website, this is surprising as the "progress report", apparently dated today does not refer to it. "Common Sense, Common Safety – progress report Government departments’ progress on health and safety reforms March 2011" http://www.dwp.gov.uk/do...scs-progress-21mar11.pdf On the other hand, the reduction in HSE routine inspections by a third has been previously reported and it could be that the HSE is consulting on the matter. It is very clear from the progress report that unless there is a change at EC Directive level that grants exemptions, for all the rhetoric, it cannot be done-copied below From reading his details, i.e "a believer in the building of public trust in regulators and industry via proactive risk communication and argues that high regulatory/industry trust is equivalent to low public perceived risk" he is better qualified than his predecessor"
jay  
#4 Posted : 21 March 2011 10:47:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

He is not an American!- Details at:- http://www.irgc.org/Ragnar-E-Lofstedt.html
Moderator 3  
#5 Posted : 21 March 2011 10:52:44(UTC)
Rank: Moderator
Moderator 3

A Point of order before you discuss this further, please avoid any statements that could be deemed in breach of FR 9, by sticking to verifiable facts about the individual. Thanks
Yossarian  
#6 Posted : 21 March 2011 12:05:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Yossarian

Thanks for that. It’s kind of important, because if Health and Safety Management can be characterised in terms of: “Protecting people from the acts or omissions of others while at work”, i.e. a positive. Then Risk Management can be characterised in terms of: “the cost effectiveness of measures put in place to prevent needless deaths through work activities”, i.e. a negative. In Safety 101, I learned that health and safety at work is beholden to the triumvirate of Legal, Moral and Financial responsibilities, So far, I can only see the Financial represented here.
jay  
#7 Posted : 21 March 2011 12:19:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

Yossarian, It is premature to comment until specific details are known. There is no press release as yet on the DWP website, except on the front page at the very end there is a paragraph ie. "Reviewing health and safety legislation- The Government has established an Independent Review of Health and Safety legislation to make proposals for simplifying the existing raft of health and safety legislation. This review - under the chairmanship of leading risk management specialist Professor Ragnar Löfstedt - is due to make recommendations to Ministers by autumn 2011" http://www.dwp.gov.uk/policy/health-and-safety/ The Guardian has reported more--to look at gold plating of implementation of EU Directives etc. This has been there all the time and only those who do not understand or know the difference between regulations, ACoPs and guidance are the ones who have this view! http://www.guardian.co.u...ty-inspections-cut-third
stevie40  
#8 Posted : 21 March 2011 12:24:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevie40

Yossarian wrote:
In Safety 101, I learned that health and safety at work is beholden to the triumvirate of Legal, Moral and Financial responsibilities, So far, I can only see the Financial represented here.
At the end of the day though, the Financial string is usually the best one to pull when pursuading somebody to improve their H&S management. I've sat in front of hundreds of MD's and FD's over the last 15 years or so and I would say around 5% take the moral view, 15% the legal view (they don't want to go to prison) and for the remainder, it is purely financial. Lord Young took the layman businessman approach to his report. For future progress to be overseen by someone with an academic background is surely a good thing?
jay  
#9 Posted : 21 March 2011 13:10:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

The DWP website has now got a press release:- http://www.dwp.gov.uk/ne...mar-2011/dwp030-11.shtml
Ron Hunter  
#10 Posted : 21 March 2011 13:16:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

He is surely someone with siginificant credibility when compared to LY? We may be in safer hands here. Reading through his particulars, it looks that he is aware of the EU Directive system and will be immediately aware of the limitations of what the UK can and cannot do with H&S Legislation. The following attributes accredied to Mr Lofsted would look to be useful: "He is a believer in the building of public trust in regulators and industry via proactive risk communication and argues that high regulatory/industry trust is equivalent to low public perceived risk". and "He is presently advising BBC News on how the corporation should communicate risk to the general public" Given the BBC's recent tendency to lapse into "red top" reporting on the 6 O'clock News and the utter nonsense frequently spouted in "The One Show" this can't be a bad thing? His name is also a good one for making anagrams! My favourite is one involving goalkeepers. I'll maybe reserve that one should things turn out a la LY "common sense"!
Yossarian  
#11 Posted : 21 March 2011 13:20:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Yossarian

stevie40 wrote:
At the end of the day though, the Financial string is usually the best one to pull when pursuading somebody to improve their H&S management. I've sat in front of hundreds of MD's and FD's over the last 15 years or so and I would say around 5% take the moral view, 15% the legal view (they don't want to go to prison) and for the remainder, it is purely financial. Lord Young took the layman businessman approach to his report. For future progress to be overseen by someone with an academic background is surely a good thing?
Fair enough stevie40, but I would also expect to see Professors of Moral Philosophy & Law on such a review panel. After all, we wouldn't want to see a business not having an emergency plan for dealing with the aftermath of a major incident to the wider community on the scale of say Bhopal or Flixborough, purely because it was not cost effective in terms of that business.
bob youel  
#12 Posted : 21 March 2011 14:30:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

The problem we have with all review groups irrespective of how truly well meaning and committed and clever they are etc is that are usually university educated academics and probably have never run a real front line business nor been unemployed nor hurt at work & ditto our politicians ------ So things will not change ----- We are where we are because of WW1 & WW2 and the people coming out of those terrible timesit from all backgrounds etc vowing that we will have a better world ----- Unfortunately those very same people who are no longer with us so we on the ground must work to keep a quality H&S culture
Nick House  
#13 Posted : 21 March 2011 16:10:16(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

Having just rear through the document 'Good Health and Safety, Good for Everyone'; my first thoughts are that this is a much better thought out review than last year's. The summary on page 12 does seem to make sense to me. It makes it clear (in my opinion) that it is not just about getting rid of a raft of legislation in order to 'simplify' things. However, I do still have a slight concern over the timescales involved - released in the spring, recommendations published by the autumn.
Ron Hunter  
#14 Posted : 21 March 2011 22:59:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Don't get sucked in by the rhetoric Nick. This is still mostly about chasing the bogeyman ("H&S") in order to score cheap political points.
Nick House  
#15 Posted : 22 March 2011 09:29:46(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

Don't worry, I won't. Just trying to put a positive spin on it. Maybe playing devil's advocate. We'll see. Like I say, the one thing that does concern me is that once again, they seem to have a very tight timescale for such a comprehensive review.
redken  
#16 Posted : 22 March 2011 10:46:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
redken

Jay, thanks for the link to the DWP press release:- "Responsible employers will no longer face automatic health and safety inspections. Instead health and safety inspectors are being instructed to concentrate their efforts on high risk locations, like major energy facilities, and on rogue employers who are putting the safety of their staff and the public at risk. This measure will cut the number of inspections carried out in the UK by at least a third." When I started on this site 14 years ago, I had a friendly Hello visit from the local inspector. He said I would probably not see him again unless we messed up. He explained that the HSE concentrated on high risk sites and small potentially rogue employers. We were a 100 employee manufacturing site of a global company. He was correct, we had only one routine inspection visit in that time. So if this is already the policy for responsible employers how will the number of inspections be cut by at least a third?
John M  
#17 Posted : 22 March 2011 11:26:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
John M

Have a look at this! Ragnar E. Löfstedt is Professor of Risk Management and the Director of King’s Centre of Risk Management, King’s College London, UK where he teaches and conducts research on risk communication and management. Previously he was a Reader in Social Geography at the University of Surrey, UK. He is also an adjunct Professor at the Harvard Center for Risk Analysis, Harvard School of Public Health where he co-directs the Risk Communication Challenge Course for continuing education professionals with Mr. David Ropeik, he is Adjunct Professor at the Department of Engineering and Public Policy, Carnegie Mellon University, and he is a Visiting Professor at the Centre for Public Sector Research, Gothenburg University, Sweden. Dr. Löfstedt earned his BA and MA degrees at University of California Los Angeles (1988) and Clark University (1991), respectively, before completing his PhD in geography at Clark University (1993). After a post-doctorate position at the Risk, Society and Policy Group at the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis (IIASA) (Laxenburg, Austria), he joined the University of Surrey as a lecturer in social geography. He has conducted research in risk communication and management in such areas as renewable energy policy, transboundary environmental issues (acid rain and nuclear power), telecommunications, biosafety, and the siting of building of incinerators, nuclear waste installations and railways. He is a believer in the building of public trust in regulators and industry via proactive risk communication and argues that high regulatory/industry trust is equivalent to low public perceived risk. Dr. Löfstedt is the author/editor of ten books and over 90 peer reviewed articles/book chapters, is the editor-in-chief for Journal of Risk Research, editor of the Earthscan publications' Risk, Society and Policy book series, and is on the editorial boards of International Journal of Risk Assessment and Management, Journal of Health Communication, Risk Analysis and Risk Management. He is on the Society for Risk Analysis-Europe's Executive Committee and is the previous chair of the Society for Risk Analysis' Risk Communication Specialty Group. He is on the Academic Advisory Board of the UK National Patient Safety Agency, the Scientific Advisory Board of the UK Environment Agency, member of the European Food Safety Authority’s Advisory Group on Risk Communications and the Swiss National Science Foundation’s expert group on non-ionizing radiation. He is a senior advisor to the City of Vienna on risk communication and nuclear power and to the City of Gothenburg on climate change. His work has been funded by the European Science Foundation, European Union, the National Science Foundation, the Swedish Council for the Planning and Coordination of Research (FRN) and UK EPSRC. He has given invited lectures on risk communication and management issues at Cambridge, Harvard Business School, Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, Harvard Law School, Jet Propulsion Laboratories-Cal Tech, MIT, NASA Head Quarters, Oxford, Princeton, and Yale School of Management. He has consulted widely for industry and regulators including Cellular Telecommunications Industry Association (CTIA), NASA, National Grid plc, Shell Oil, the State of Baden Wurttemberg (Germany), Swedish Chemical Industry Association, the Swedish Chemical Inspectorate, and Vattenfall AB. He is presently advising BBC News on how the corporation should communicate risk to the general public. In December 2000 Ragnar Löfstedt was awarded (as the first non American) the Chauncey Starr Award for exceptional contributions to the field of risk analysis for someone under the age of 40 by the Society for Risk Analysis and in 2005 he was made a Fellow of the Society for Risk Analysis. Why oh why has this coalition lot engaged this guy. I see no reference to NEBOSH or NVQ or health and safety advisor competence in his pedigree. Similar to Lord Young I guess. I wonder what Professor Frank B. Wright (home produced) is thinking right now. Undoubtedbly, the best man to undertake such a review. Jon
Dougc  
#18 Posted : 22 March 2011 11:33:06(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Dougc

Careful colleagues, my post yesterday on the members forum ref Chris Grayling has just been pulled by the moderators following eight replies generally supporting what I had posted. PS. Apparently we have all been blaming the wrong people for the UK’s economic problems, it is not the bankers with their multi million pound bonus and salary schemes who are to blame, it appears that it is the fault of our profession. Speaking at a round table event with key players from the health and safety industry, Chris Grayling MP said: "Britain’s health and safety culture is also stifling business and holding back economic growth”. What next will our profession be blamed for – war and petulance!
Nick House  
#19 Posted : 22 March 2011 11:37:22(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

Bring on the four horsemen...
jay  
#20 Posted : 22 March 2011 12:13:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

It is not essential that the person leading the review is a professional health & safety practitioner--Lord Robens was not! What is critical is the terms of reference (if any exist!) and the robustness of the review together with factual/evidence basis of recommendations instead of quotes from selected media etc. I for one give him the benefit of doubt as it is not in his own personal/professional interest to be associated with a report that is not up to the mark
DaveDowan  
#21 Posted : 22 March 2011 12:30:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DaveDowan

Dear All I wonder why esteemed members of this venerable institute are not being consulted ?
Ron Hunter  
#22 Posted : 22 March 2011 12:58:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

I guess DougC meant "war and pestilence". Let's leave the petulance to Messrs Grayling and others. So, apparently it's now "Britain's Health and Safety Culture". Previous references were to the prevailing "Claims Culture". Perhaps Mr Grayling would care to explain what he actually means. I wasn't aware Britain had any sort of uniformity on these issues, other than the utter nonsense spouted by the Red Tops. Should we have sympathy perhaps for Chris Grayling, having drawn such a political short straw following the 'departures' of LY?
MEden380  
#23 Posted : 22 March 2011 12:59:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MEden380

Where is the evidence that current UK Health and Safety Legislation is stiffing economic growth? The powers that be bandy about "common sense " approach to H&S. If it existed there would be no need for our profession - "Good Sense" is what we need to preach. Lets not forget where most deaths and serious injuries occur in the work place - not the large employers who except that good H&S means good morale which means good productivity which means profit. Accidents and injury in the workplace are caused by the greedy and inept employer who does not take any notice of legislation - so by cutting legislation / burden of red tape, who isthis going to help? Whilst I have no political affiliation to any party - does it not look like the present government is trying to put us back in time and look after its fund donators yet again? Rant over - but I don't believe I am the only Safety Professional that thinks this way By the way I believe we started the recent riots in the Middle East!
jay  
#24 Posted : 22 March 2011 13:24:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

Apparently, the Federation of Small Businesses (FSB) members view is that "Regulation is one of the most burdensome and complex issues for small businesses, so it is a real victory for the Federation of Small Businesses (FSB) and small firms across the country that the Government has finally listened. "FSB research shows that 27 per cent of businesses said increased regulation created difficulties in expanding their business and 33 per cent said regulation is the biggest potential obstacle to growth. http://www.fsb.org.uk/Ne...c=pressroom&rec=7013 It is entirely a different matter regarding the basis of the survey and what questions were asked etc as survey can also be designed to get results one wants!
Taylor  
#25 Posted : 22 March 2011 14:06:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Taylor

Jay - I've taken a look at the link you posted. Is the regulation being referred to by the FSB employment regulation rather than H&S regulation per se. That's how I read it anyway. Overall - I'm really struggling to see what real H&S benefit any of this government debate will bring. The majority of views I have read have been largely unsupportive / sceptical of what is going on. Me too. As some have already commented - it appears we are the root of all evil !
John M  
#26 Posted : 22 March 2011 14:34:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
John M

Post #17 has been removed by the moderators because I cut and pasted from the Kings College London website. All interested can read the Professor's biography at www.kcl.ac.uk . Simple! Jon
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