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Killeen44565  
#1 Posted : 21 March 2011 23:57:34(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Killeen44565

My query is what is best practice with regard to evacuation procedures for a college environment where students and responsible persons may move from different parts of the building etc.. In this case is it appropriate to allocate a fixed assembly zone which stays with all individuals during there time in the college etc..

After a sweep of the building by fire marshals, what is good practice for the counting of individuals ( head count ) where there may be large groups of individuals at assembley zones.

Any comments or expertise would be very valuable.
Bob Shillabeer  
#2 Posted : 22 March 2011 00:19:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

This response will no doubt create some rather contrary points but here goes. Dont even think of any thing like a role call system, it wont work in an environment with a fluid population. Get the fire marshalls to do an effective sweep to confirm the premises are clear and make sure any access to the building is very much controlled. To control access in a very fuid premises is very hard to achieve if not impossible. You have a duty to ensure that everyone evacuates so far as is reasonably practicable. You need to ensure that everyone is fully informed (and trained) about what to do should the fire alarm sound wether it is a single or two stage alarm system. Students by the definition are young and will take notice of instructions very rarely as has been the case for many generations so you need to take accopunt of this in any system you implement so dont rely on them behaving the way you expect but keep the process as simple as possible. Undertake a check that the premises are empty by a sweep by fire marshals and you wont go far wrong.
Killeen44565  
#3 Posted : 22 March 2011 01:33:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Killeen44565

bob shillabeer wrote:
This response will no doubt create some rather contrary points but here goes. Dont even think of any thing like a role call system, it wont work in an environment with a fluid population. Get the fire marshalls to do an effective sweep to confirm the premises are clear and make sure any access to the building is very much controlled. To control access in a very fuid premises is very hard to achieve if not impossible. You have a duty to ensure that everyone evacuates so far as is reasonably practicable. You need to ensure that everyone is fully informed (and trained) about what to do should the fire alarm sound wether it is a single or two stage alarm system. Students by the definition are young and will take notice of instructions very rarely as has been the case for many generations so you need to take accopunt of this in any system you implement so dont rely on them behaving the way you expect but keep the process as simple as possible. Undertake a check that the premises are empty by a sweep by fire marshals and you wont go far wrong.


Thank you Bob, much appreciated. I am a first time user in the forum.
Canopener  
#4 Posted : 22 March 2011 07:41:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

I tend to agree with Bob that a roll call system in larger organisations can be difficult, and very time consuming to ensure that you ever have anything near an accurate head count etc. Personally we do a full sweep of the building using fire marshals and use that as our basis for the building being cleared. As a 'belt and braces' approach we also ask managers etc to ensure that their staff are accounted for. My wife works for a large local employer and their procedure is the same, people evacuate and they are asked to disperse (they couldn't possibly fit on the pavements and would be a obstacle for the fire service if they stayed) and the building is 'swept'.
sean  
#5 Posted : 22 March 2011 08:27:04(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

We have had the same debate in work over whether to take a role call or not, we do as many others do and sweep the areas and report to a central control point that the area is clear.

Recently in one of our other buildings there was a bomb alert, we were told after the event in no uncertain terms that a role call under those circumstances was necessary, not to find out if the staff were safe but to see who was missing as they could well be the suspects!
Jane Blunt  
#6 Posted : 22 March 2011 08:35:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jane Blunt

The word 'college' covers institutions from age around 11 upwards (to around mid-twenties ish). You don't say how old these people are. Are they adults or not?

The fact that you are contemplating a head count suggests that you know how many people should be there, which suggests you are at the younger end of the spectrum.

If this is the case, then I suggest you examine the way in which people 'sign in' or are otherwise known to be on the premises and use this as a basis for checking who is missing (who may have gone to the shops, I guess!). If they are not adults, I would be uncomfortale about not reconciling the list of people who should be on the premises to the people arriving at the assembly area.

Nevertheless the practical assurance that no-one remains in the premises is via the sweep of the premises.

You don't say, but I guess the alarm sounds in all areas at once. If it does not then the sweep is the only thing you can do, since many of the people not at the assembly areas will legitimately be in other buildings where the alarm is not sounding.
kdrum  
#7 Posted : 22 March 2011 09:11:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
kdrum

Killeen I work in a similar environment on a joint FE College/University campus so we have students from 15 up, as other posters had said the nature odf what we do means head count would be almost impossible as it changes by the hour. We implement a sweep system where upon alarm activation fire marshalls deploy to all areas including refuge points and sweep the building. All lecturers are responsible for clearing their class and common areas such as library swept by staff working in that area. Once all areas are swept the marshals report to fire co-ordinator.

We carry out a full evacuation once every term both during the day and night for evening classes, we have discussed this with the Fire Service and they are happy with the system we use.

regards

Kevin
ptaylor14  
#8 Posted : 22 March 2011 10:26:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ptaylor14

bob shillabeer wrote:
This response will no doubt create some rather contrary points but here goes. Dont even think of any thing like a role call system, it wont work in an environment with a fluid population. Get the fire marshalls to do an effective sweep to confirm the premises are clear and make sure any access to the building is very much controlled. To control access in a very fuid premises is very hard to achieve if not impossible. You have a duty to ensure that everyone evacuates so far as is reasonably practicable. You need to ensure that everyone is fully informed (and trained) about what to do should the fire alarm sound wether it is a single or two stage alarm system. Students by the definition are young and will take notice of instructions very rarely as has been the case for many generations so you need to take accopunt of this in any system you implement so dont rely on them behaving the way you expect but keep the process as simple as possible. Undertake a check that the premises are empty by a sweep by fire marshals and you wont go far wrong.


I agree with this in its entirety
Merv  
#9 Posted : 22 March 2011 18:20:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Merv

Killeen, I ran twice-a-year drills for about twenty years. Rarely had a correct roll call head count. Not even with electronic swipe cards. As Bob and others say, rely on well trained sweeps. (make sure that they check both male and female toilets and changing areas. Don't be shy (and, honestly, that really has been one of my problems))

Let the managers do a head count if they want to. Keeps them busy and feeling useful for a while and stops them bothering those who really have something to do.

During the post mortem any missing (or difficult) people are reported as "burnt to death"

Merv
Killeen44565  
#10 Posted : 22 March 2011 22:59:34(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Killeen44565

Firstly I would like to thank – Bob, Phil Rose, Sean, Jane, kdrum, ptaylor14 and merv. I cant believe the response and time given, thank you.

I should of clarified ( I am first time user!) that this school caters for adults 18years and over. There are a number of schools that operate under the umbrella of this institution. In this school there are a number of departments. The alarm sounds in each school where there is a drill. The lecturers are all acting fire wardens. ( in that they have control over there own class ) as well as other acting fire wardens They do a roll call at lectures. The sweep of the building is good, however the large number of students together with all fire wardens at assembly zones is a difficulty ( 3 zones 2 at front and 1 at rear of building ) is difficult to do head count and correlate information back to Chef Fire Warden ( senior management -3 acting chef fire wardens may not always be on site at meetings etc..) . The role call I know will not be precise ( students may sometimes use labs or other services within the school etc.. ).
It was mentioned a control point for Fire Wardens to go to correlate information back to chef fire warden ( on head count ) which may work in this instance
Chef fire wardens may not always be present ( nominate another, how many I wonder )
Thanks so much for all comments ( including Merv, I will take from all ) and have all helped and is useful to know what different practices are in relation to this particular subject. Killeen
Killeen44565  
#11 Posted : 22 March 2011 23:15:34(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Killeen44565

Jane Blunt wrote:
The word 'college' covers institutions from age around 11 upwards (to around mid-twenties ish). You don't say how old these people are. Are they adults or not?

The fact that you are contemplating a head count suggests that you know how many people should be there, which suggests you are at the younger end of the spectrum.

If this is the case, then I suggest you examine the way in which people 'sign in' or are otherwise known to be on the premises and use this as a basis for checking who is missing (who may have gone to the shops, I guess!). If they are not adults, I would be uncomfortale about not reconciling the list of people who should be on the premises to the people arriving at the assembly area.

Nevertheless the practical assurance that no-one remains in the premises is via the sweep of the premises.

You don't say, but I guess the alarm sounds in all areas at once. If it does not then the sweep is the only thing you can do, since many of the people not at the assembly areas will legitimately be in other buildings where the alarm is not sounding.


Jane -Firstly I would like to thank – Bob, Phil Rose, Sean, Jane, kdrum, ptaylor14 and merv. I cant believe the response and time given, thank you.

I should of clarified ( I am first time user!) that this school caters for adults 18years and over. There are a number of schools that operate under the umbrella of this institution. In this school there are a number of departments. The alarm sounds in each school where there is a drill. The lecturers are all acting fire wardens. ( in that they have control over there own class ) as well as other acting fire wardens They do a roll call at lectures. The sweep of the building is good, however the large number of students together with all fire wardens at assembly zones is a difficulty ( 3 zones 2 at front and 1 at rear of building ) is difficult to do head count and correlate information back to Chef Fire Warden ( senior management -3 acting chef fire wardens may not always be on site at meetings etc..) . The role call I know will not be precise ( students may sometimes use labs or other services within the school etc.. ).
It was mentioned a control point for Fire Wardens to go to correlate information back to chef fire warden ( on head count ) which may work in this instance
Chef fire wardens may not always be present ( nominate another, how many I wonder )
Thanks so much for all comments ( including Merv, I will take from all ) and have all helped and is useful to know what different practices are in relation to this particular subject. Killeen
Mark Lovibond  
#12 Posted : 23 March 2011 00:11:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mark Lovibond

Killeen,

Notwithstanding the previous posts which offer great advice regarding the evacuation, and good on you for responding to those people with your thanks (some people don't bother!), one question has still not been answered - and that is where do all these people muster when they are outside the building?

Its getting late at the moment but I will try and get back on tomorrow to offer some advice. If any other forum users have ideas or experience regarding where groups should assemble (one central point or numerous points depending on location of building on campus) then I'm sure Killeen would be appreciative of additional advice in this area too.
Jane Blunt  
#13 Posted : 23 March 2011 06:46:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jane Blunt

On my site there are eight buildings and people are free to go from one to another, so there is never any certainty as to where people will be.

We have 5 assembly areas, strategically placed so that people are not going to be in the way of/be run over by the Fire Engine. They are all in places where you cannot be trapped by the fire.

People are instructed to go to the one nearest their exit point, which means that there should never be people at more than three assembly areas. This comes in handy when giving the all-clear, as to visit all five is a very long walk. It also makes it efficient if we needed to tell people to move away by 200 m + in the event that the fire is real.
Killeen44565  
#14 Posted : 24 March 2011 00:36:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Killeen44565

Jane Blunt wrote:
On my site there are eight buildings and people are free to go from one to another, so there is never any certainty as to where people will be.

We have 5 assembly areas, strategically placed so that people are not going to be in the way of/be run over by the Fire Engine. They are all in places where you cannot be trapped by the fire.

People are instructed to go to the one nearest their exit point, which means that there should never be people at more than three assembly areas. This comes in handy when giving the all-clear, as to visit all five is a very long walk. It also makes it efficient if we needed to tell people to move away by 200 m + in the event that the fire is real.


Thank you Jane for getting back, much appreciated
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