You don't have to reply to me here - and would best advise not to so as the discussion forum doesn't become an advertizing space - but I am looking for opinions of CDM Awareness Courses. I have a consultative team I want to ensure such a course has been delivered to and would be keen for feedback from others to what their own expectations for delivery would be as well as poss good providers (again the latter is something you may which to mail me directly over). Andrew Böber CMIOSH FRSPH FRGS

I’m going to start with an apology to: 1. The original poster. This is not what you asked for and I shall contact you off piste with some info on Monday. Apologies for hi-jacking your thread. 2. Secondly apology goes to Bob. I am not sure what your post is meant to do. Is it serious or purely designed to wind people up and provoke them? If it is neither then you have my apology. Bob you seemed to have touched on two of MY pet hates. 1. I hate our fellow professionals who, when asked a health and safety question simply state that: “Your risk assessment should tell you that”. Yes that statement is true but it generally does nothing to help the person in question who may need additional guidance. It also does nothing to enhance our profession and gives a negative impression. Your answer that you tell them that CDM is a regulation is not funny at all; it’s in line with the statement “your risk assessment should tell you etc”. Worst still, you then make the assumption that they are now 100% aware of the legislation. The military has a saying about assumptions and what it is the mother of. In short we sometimes need to do more, everyone is an individual, they see hazards and take in information differently, we should be aware of that and act accordingly. 2. As a lead auditor I want an audit team that will do their task, but, at the same time work with the client to help them. Sure we are not to give advice, we are after all there to audit and not be the appointed person under Reg 7. But we are also not on a witch hunt. The old school of auditing and scoring brownie points off the client has died. “Long live the new school of auditing”. Any training is a step in the right direction and a variance on the style and type of training will (in my opinion) do more good than harm. Nout wrong with an attendance/awareness course. Some times the value is in the content of the course, not some “commitment to memory exam” that does more to raise stress levels than educate. Another other value is often found in the tutor who can pick up on students who are not absorbing facts and adapt to them.

Fair points made there Bob. One of my concerns is that you can lead the horse to water etc etc. Retrospectively you can give a man a book but will he read it or understand it? Some people will not take the time to read information, sometimes they need to be told it. True, many of the courses that I deliver such as PUWER are essentially attendance courses that the student could avoid by just logging onto the HSE web site, downloading a copy of L22 and INDG291 and cracking on in their own time. But generally human nature is often not like that. People will find better or more interesting things to do, the paperwork never gets read and it just gathers dust or becomes a fire hazard. And where is the audit trail? “Sign as read and having understood” is not very convincing really. An awareness course and an attendance course are one and the same, just that, sit there look pretty and listen. But it does give me some control. I can gauge the receptive ability of the student, ensure understanding by clarifying a point. It also gives the student a chance to ask questions and clarify a point in their mind, not that I know it all, after all every day is a school day for us all. I don’t share your views, but I do share your concerns. The key is often in the tutor and how they manage the course. I once did an engineering course in Paris over two weeks! The tutor told us all on day one that it was an attendance course, no exam and no revision. What a mistaker to maker, talk about 18 go wild in Paris. There are also too many in our profession who will deliver an awareness course without looking further than the £400-500 cheque at the end of the day. Suitable and sufficient? Don’t think so. There is no answer to the points you raise, but I think that writing them off carte-blanche is not one of them. Horses for courses is another cheesy phrase that I will quote. I would hate to be the man who says “well Miss HSE inspector or Mr Insurance company auditor, I don’t send my staff on courses because I only believe in one way of delivering training. When I audit these sorts of issues I want to know (the same as you in your last post): 1. Do you know what you want? 2. Do you know how you want to get it? 3. How do you ensure that the course is right for YOUR needs? 4. Did it meet your needs and if not what now? If an attendance course meets the needs of the above then fine. It gets a tick from me and I move on. If not………….

Ron Unfortunately my health and the amount of painkillers and NSAIDs I am taking do not permit me to either drive any real distance or maintain an ability to concentrate for more than 2 hours at a stretch. It is time for a new generation but I worry about the direction - from simple issues such as this to the newer areas including diversity and the management of risk in this sphere. I also worry sometimes about some of the management systems I see and wonder for the future Bob

I deliver 'CDM Awarenes' 'Toolbox talks' to SME builders and contractors. I act as CDM-C for small building companies. 'Awareness' is necessary for them because they will not bother to find out themselves; before I came along they didn't know they needed a CDM-C, didn't know what an F10 was, their CPP was in their head. As CDM-C my duty is to ensure their project has a plan. The 'awareness toolbox talk ' explains that the contractors have to have written evidence of competency, the project has to have inspections, risk assessments etc etc

Indeed stedman, the problem that I observe with 'smaller builders' (and that includes builders who have been building for over 20 years) is that they have been operating a building business without any knowledge of CDM, and as I say some of then DO NOT HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE! First meetings with them, having established the scale of the project and who did the drawings, I tell the builder that I will be their CDM-C and that they are both the client and the principal contractor and we can now go on line to notify the project...... Blank looks. Comments like 'So the HSE will know that we are building here?' 'Does that mean they will come and inspect the site?' Hence the CDM Awareness session has to be offered, they need it in order to understand what my duties are as well as their own.

John, I think that someone is giving you the run-around. Builders who have type of turnover to support a CDM sized project must surely have been asked specific questions on this matter by their insurers, come across designers, surveys, structural engineers etc who have identified the CDM Regulations as part of their duties and at the end of the project how can they sell on a building without a H&S File!

As a CDMC, I agree with John and Brett, there are many small builders who do not understand the requirements of the CDM Regs. The Regs covers all construction work, not just notifiable, but many builders only believe that it does not apply to them if there is no CDMC. This is what is happening all the time, and, with the recession in the construction industry, with many small builder coming and going, will not get any better. If I can help them in any way, whatever I call the help, I will and I really think that it is a bit pedantic to think that this shouldn't be done or that it is too woolly a title. I thought, when I came into H&S, that my role was to help people and make there worklife safe not ensure that any help I gave had the correct title. I just like to ensure that I give the right information. What does surprise me, though, is that I come across designers e.g. architects who do not understand the their repsonsibilities and requirement of the Regs and seem to believe that as they have only produced plans for the planning application it is not relevent to them. Maybe I should give them some CDM awareness!!

AndyF, You are correct about architects/designers. The things I have encountered is "I dont care" etc. It's not so much that they are not aware, but more of an attitude when it comes to domestic works and/or private commercial work. We certainly do not come accross the same problems on the public sector work as we do the private sector. I think the "only produced plans for the planning application" is just an attempt to cop out as it would affect their fees/quotation and therefore they may not get the work. I've heard the same statement time and time again.

I see. Not something I would have immediately put in the "small/er builder" category.

Well Bob, awareness comes first, then understanding but in all honesty some builders will never understand CDM. The retrospective PCP? Well it is a start in educating these uninformed builders, it's the start of 'writing things down', and it gets me started on the info for their F10 so yes it's 'ticking boxes' but it's very useful. Getting a CPP written up for some builders is quite a task, then there's the H&S file. Blank looks and laughter at meetings is guaranteed. JohnW

Ha Bob, if I increase my fees I would get much less business. As I said in an earlier post, most of the builders I've encountered had no 'awareness of what CDM was about' and I am sought out either because of HSE prohibition notices or via a worried insurance company. Someone has to take these builders on, and make an effort. I either get the project legal or I walk away.

JohnW You need to find fewer clients but they will pay better and you have more time to do the quality job. I know exactly what you are saying BUT You are placing yourself at risk and underselling yourself permanently restricts future fees. You can always discount down but never up. A days work of a chartered person should in my humble opinion be around the 400-500 rate. You can do specials for good clients or those who you might wish to help but remeber these engagements take up an awful lot more time than expected. Charity may be good and I know people are at risk but you are being used not to protect people but to keep the HSE from the door. Bob