Rank: Forum user
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Morning all, OK, bear with me on this one please - maths is not a strong point, and neither is DSE....
Room is 11 metres 700 x 5 metres 200 (wall to wall, no fixed cabinets etc) but ceiling is only 2 metres 400 - how many going by the ACoP can we get into the room. I do recall something about the ceiling height being less than 3 metres then it can't be counted in the calculation.....but I could be wrong and happy to be corrected.
Thanks in advance.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I beleive the answer is as follows;-
The total volume of the room, when empty, divided by the number of people normally working in it should be at least 11 cubic metres. In making this calculation a room or part of a room which is more than 3.0 m high should be counted as 3.0 m high maximum.
11.7 x 5.2 x 2.4 = 145cubic metres
14 people
I think!
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Rank: Forum user
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Think I agree, but remember it says in the schedule (3) (a)
" The workstation shall be dimensional and designed so as to provide sufficient space for the operator or user to change position and vary movement"
So always think of the user in these calculations. They could be big or small!!!
Regards
Les
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Rank: Forum user
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Excellent, thanks guys for the info :-)
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Rank: Super forum user
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I make it 13 people, round up/down. Don't forget that when you populate this room that you need adequate space between adjacent chairs and adequate walkspace (aisles) so 13 may be a bit optomistic.
11.7 x 5.2 x 2.4 = 146
146 / 11 = 13.3
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Rank: Forum user
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Hi Ken, you're right, 13 is optimistic! Having had a look at the unit, the heat / humidity alone with another 3 people in will be a nightmare, and don't even get me started with the fire and evacuation aspect. However, I am here to advise the best I can, but some managers find it hard to accept the advice or alternative solutions - blinkered....?
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Rank: Super forum user
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Hi SafetyGirl,
Trust me we all feel your pain, advise and record is my advice.... I imagine the occupants will soon voice their discontent when they are shoe-horned in....
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Rank: Super forum user
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The 11 cubic metres standard is nothing to do with DSE, it's a general standard from the Welfare Regs. And you are supposed to subtract the furniture from the volume before dividing by the number of occupants. Or is the plan to save space by giving them all laptops and having them stand up or sit on the floor?
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Rank: Forum user
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I try to avoid getting the tape measure out where possible as it hardly ever solves the situation. If it looks tight and there isn't enough room to swing a cat (am I still allowed to say that?) then it's unlikely that the occupants will be able to stretch and adjust their positions as the DSE Regs advise.
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Rank: Forum user
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Kate wrote:The 11 cubic metres standard is nothing to do with DSE, it's a general standard from the Welfare Regs. And you are supposed to subtract the furniture from the volume before dividing by the number of occupants. Or is the plan to save space by giving them all laptops and having them stand up or sit on the floor? Can I clarify, that I'm actually not supporting this. However, my interpretation of the ACoP is that 11 cu metres is calculated while the room is empty, although it does recognise that it may not be sufficient when furniture and equipment are in place. And before risk assessment is mentioned....! I'm now going down the "fire" route
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Rank: Super forum user
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SG,
You are correct, the formula is applied to the dimensions of a room when empty, you then adjust this figure to take into account the furniture, equipment etc. As far as I am aware there is no formulae for this, just subjective reasoning....
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Rank: Super forum user
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The formula for adjusting the figure to take the furniture into account is subtraction of the volume taken up by the furniture.
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Rank: New forum user
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and of course dont forget the fresh air requirements, c10l/s per person
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Rank: Super forum user
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Many moons ago we carried out an analysis of a variety of rooms & concluded that an approximate deduction for furniture, walkways, etc. came out at 40% - it appeared to work in most situations.
Therefore, w x l x h (max 3m) = x cubic m ; deduct 40% = y cubic m; divide by 11 = approx maximum occupancy.
Hope this helps!
Zyggy
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Rank: Super forum user
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Ziggy, can you just check my sums??? Say 3m X 3m X 3m =27 square meters, deduct 40% eguals 16.2 square meters devide by 11 and the result is 1.47. If the space is only 2 meters wide but the rest is 3 meters then this works out at 0.98 thus too small an area for one person??? This works out that the minimum space is in fact 2.5m X 3m X 3m which works out at 1.22. I know my maths is rather dusty so are my calculations right?
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Rank: Super forum user
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Bob,
As I intimated, this advice was only based on an approximate amount as every room is different & never a perfect cube!!
Given your first example (3x3x3), it may well be that given the furniture, etc. (a lot smaller desks now & less paper = fewer cabinets) means that the 40% could be reduced to say 35% & then an occupancy of 2 may be reasonable - please remember it's just a guide, not an exact science!
If we then use the same room dimension again & it is going to be used by an architect who will need space to work on large plans, etc., then the 40% may have to be increased to 45% & therefore in that case it may indeed be the case that only one person can work in the room.
The 40% guide came from an amalgamation of different rooms & settings & is only meant to be used as an initial estimation.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Reduction for Desks etc Just re-read the HSE Document – "Workplace health, safety and welfare A short guide for managers" http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg244.pdfCan’t find any statement on reducing the space to allow for desks etc – only to;- “.. .The volume of the room when empty, divided by the number of people normally working in it, should be at least 11 cubic metres. .......” Note the use of "when empty" - So where does the 'reduction' come from?
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Rank: Guest
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Thought you all might like to see the way the Cabinet office are proceeding with Government property, they have changed the calculation from cubed to squared? I have been trying to get clarification on this and what it actually means as my department will be moving location next year. All very worrying..... http://www.cabinetoffice...tegy-cuts-millions-costs
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Rank: Super forum user
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sean wrote:Thought you all might like to see the way the Cabinet office are proceeding with Government property, they have changed the calculation from cubed to squared? I have been trying to get clarification on this and what it actually means as my department will be moving location next year. All very worrying..... http://www.cabinetoffice...tegy-cuts-millions-costs Sorry to say but this doesn't make much sense to me, so are we saying that each full time employee is entitled to 8m2, which would make allow 7 employees in the OP's workspace. I did note that the proposal for a max of 8m2 per employee, which is quite concerning. I am thinking that this will be an ecfficiency saving within government estates, rather than a change to welfare regs, which I would be quoting in quite a loud voice....
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Rank: Guest
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Ken you are echoing all my concerns, who decided to change the recognised cubed calculation to squared and why? If you have a few part time workers all working on the same shift we will not have enough desks as the calculation is for FTE only? We have hot desking already, at this rate we will be working in the lift lobby, or the cleaners cupboard which will probably conform in size to the new squared standard!
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Alan Haynes wrote:Reduction for Desks etc Just re-read the HSE Document – "Workplace health, safety and welfare A short guide for managers" http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg244.pdfCan’t find any statement on reducing the space to allow for desks etc – only to;- “.. .The volume of the room when empty, divided by the number of people normally working in it, should be at least 11 cubic metres. .......” Note the use of "when empty" - So where does the 'reduction' come from? Just looking at this now Alan, you are right of course but I've always interpreted it to account for furniture. I have quite a lot in this office and if I was to be moved into a smaller room then I'd probably be sat outside. L24 is grey but this clears slightly with the statement that 'workstations should be arranged so that each task can carried out safely and comfortably'. If we can access and egress the workstation easily and work in a relatively comfortable environment there shouldn't be too many issues.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Please refer to the ACoP and guidance to Regulation 10 of the "welfare" regs regarding minimum space The ACop clarifies that:- there should be enough free space to allow people to get to and from workstations and to move within the room, with ease. the number of people who may work in any particular room at any one time will depend not only on the size of the room, but on the space taken up by furniture, fittings, equipment, and on the layout of the room. The figure of 11 cubic metres per person is a minimum and may be insufficient if, for example, much of the room is taken up by furniture etc. The guidance clarifies that the floor space per person indicated in paragraph 77 and 79 will not always give sufficient unoccupied space, as required by the Regulation. Rooms may need to be larger, or to have fewer people working in them, than indicated in those paragraphs, depending on such factors as the contents and layout of the room and the nature of the work. Where space is limited careful planning of the workplace is particularly important. http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l24.pdfThe most important factor is that the welfare regs are not DSE specific.
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