The Client has identified in the pre-construction information that there are asbestos cement sheet panels which will be replaced during the refurbishment of roofs to a block containing 30 flats. No asbestos register exists or survey has been undertaken, although I have since been informed that 'testing' of the asbestos is taking place - whatever that means. The PC has not budgeted for the removal of ACs by a licensed contractor and seems prepared to strip and remove them himself with I believe a limited knowledge of the precautions needed. Having in the past worked for large Clients who have agreed to test and dispose of ACMs at their cost I am not overly comfortable with this one. I am aware that AC is of a lower risk than other asbestos materials, nevertheless I would be grateful for your views on how you would deal with this matter. Many thanks - Ray

Hi Ray First the AC - can be done by a team who have had working with asbestos training - I would back UKATA but other brands are available They will need EL and PL to cover work with asb which may or may not be tricky. the work methods are well described on HSE website - the biggest issue is that there will probably be breakage which will create debris in the roof space which will be difficult to clean and if they don't clean it may cause subsequent issues. The waste will need to go to a licensed tip via a registered carrier. so that deals with the practicalities... as for the rest of it - sounds like a sketchy client.. cover all parts of your body and watch out for delays in getting paid! Have a nice day? Regards Bruce

Thanks guys for the swift responses. This is a smallish project on domestic properties costing about £300k. When I said the Client, I meant of course the CDM-C on behalf of the Client. I am preparing the CPP for the PC, hence my ambivalence with the asbestos issues. Compounding the problem is the PCs lack of CDM and asbestos knowledge, so trying to get the message across without sounding too onerous. I really need to formulate a plan of action with which to respond to the CDM-C's pre-construction information, which is at best frugal and worst - inadequate, before I submit the CPP. Please keep the comments coming - thanks.

Ray, 1, Is the client aware of their duties and extended duties with regards to CDM regs, 2, Pick through the phase plan with a fine tooth comb to establish how they plan to remove and dispose of the said roof panels without radiating the environment with airbourne fibres 3, Has the PC gained accreditation in any kind of discilpines i.e. CHAS, construction line, OHSAS 18001 4, Contact a referee who may have first hand experience with the PC on previous contracts. 5, Check the HSE website to see if they have any kind of previous enforecement action This is a checklist I would definitely consider before entering into any kind of contract with them considering the bulk of asbestos to be removed. Finally what is your involvement with this contract?

Are the known/presumed or suspected ACMs under discussion here the soffit boards and/barge boards? No way will these come away without breaking. Risk Assessment in accordance with CAR Regulation 6 (see L143) would therefore probably conclude a requirement for a licensed contractor. Given the paucity of detail received via the PCI let's hope there isn't AIB or other higher-risk ACM lurking up there! My assumption here is external works only associated with re-roof, soffits, rainwater goods etc. Easy to suggest that a little exploratory work via MEWP is advisable. Whilst this is more expense upfront for the residents, the other possible scenarios could include a minimum 14 days of down-tools and day rate payment if other ACMs are discovered when construction phase commences. Or is this the kind of PC who will likely just (literally) bash on regardless? Then it's a matter of risk of getting caught. Interersting take on application of CDM here with a domestic client, albeit a collective one?

Ray Asbestos Essentials (Non Licensed Tasks) A14 Removing asbestos cement (AC) sheets, gutters, etc and dismantling a small structure refers to work on a small scale like a garage roof. 30 Flats does not fit the scale of small work. You are looking at licensed removal. Ensure you know what is classed as non licensed and licensed work.

My point of interest on the application of CDM was with reference to Ray's statement: "The Client is actually one of the residents, so presumably appointed by the other residents". If none of that is written down (they haven't 'formed a company'), the HSE would have a task on their hands proving that CDM actually applied! From the ACoP: Sometimes groups who would otherwise be domestic clients form companies to administer construction work. A common example of this is a company formed by leaseholders of flats to undertake maintenance of the common parts of a structure. In such a case, the company is not a domestic client, and will have duties under the Regulations. Off-topic. 'nuff said.

Ray, In my experience asbestos has a horrible habit of going very wrong even when you feel that you have everything set up properly with the right people in place. What you are describing smells very risky and initially I would simply not accept anything less than a Refurbishment and Demolition Survey undertaken to the ISO/IEC 17020 Standard by a UKAS Accredited survey organisation. If a PC wanted to undertake their own AC removal, I would want to see evidence of employee and third party insurance cover for this type of work, the type of asbestos awareness training undertaken, washing and changing facilities and details of the safe system of work if they discover notifyable ACM. In order to reduce the risk to your client I would also expect a third party to be appointed to oversee this work. I would also apply the (is it worth risking my PI insurance) test to this project and from your client’s point of view, if the PC has not sufficiently budgeted for the removal of asbestos cement or even asked for a Refurbishment and Demolition Survey report, what else has the PC not budgeted or accounted for?

My interpretation of the regs was minor work (which, in total, takes one man no more than one hour, or two people no more than two hours in any seven day period) does not require a licence. It also states in the regs "No work should be carried out with asbestos unless a Written Plan of Work detailing how that work is to be carried out has first been prepared" Has the PC stayed at one of Her Majesty's Hotels before?

The proverbial has hit the fan...having emailed the CDM-C listing my concerns with the asbestos cement panels removal, testing and surveying, the CDM-C has since spoke to the PC and put pressure on him to get on with the job. The CDM-C has not responded to my email - what a surprise. However, the PC is adamant that he can tackle the task competently. When I asked him if he, or any of his employees, has had Asbestos Awareness Training, his reply was "what's that?" End of story. Although I have all but completed the CPP, I am of a mind to just walk away from this one. If it were not for the fact that the PC is a decent fellow, albeit naive, and the CDM-C is taking advantage of the situation. I am very disappointed with the CDM-C (a limited company) and if no response is forthcoming I will consider reporting them to the authorities for numerous breaches and condoning of h&s law.

The reason i included the timescale, Gerry is because the OP has said the PC is determined to break the panels out himself if necessary. I believe the regs state 'Generally, a licence is not required for AC' but maybe this is one of those occasions when it is required.

Well, some progress has been made with the CDM-C etc. My main concern is whether a fully intrusive survey should now be implemented (refurbishment/demolition type) prior to the works starting in a couple of weeks or so. If not, and potential ACMs are subsequently found, this will cause a delay whilst testing and/or removal of ACMs is carried out. Furthermore, it seems most likely the Client will expect the PC to carry the burden of these additional costs, which is not right as far as I'm concerned. Comments welcome.

Show him this- it might just focus his mind! An investigation by the HSE found that a construction service company and its sub-contractor, put workers and the public at risk by failing to properly manage the presence of asbestos during the refurbishment of a residential block of flats between 24 November and 8 December 2009. The work was carried out in an occupied block of flats in the London Borough of Hackney. During the work, asbestos insulation board was disturbed and removed by the subcontractor who was unlicensed. A previous survey, identifying the presence of asbestos insulation board in a number of the properties, had been provided to the construction service company, but had not been acted upon or passed to their sub-contractors. The construction service company pleaded guilty and was fined £50,000 at the Old Bailey for breaching Regulation 22(1)(a) Construction (Design and Management) Regulations 2007. The sub-contractor pleaded guilty of breaching regulations 5, 8(1) and 11(a) of the Control of Asbestos Regulations 2006. Each of the companies was fined £50,000 and ordered to pay joint costs of £20,690. The HSE inspectors aid: “Despite recent high profile campaigns on the dangers of working with asbestos, this case sadly illustrates some companies are still failing to manage the risks robustly. The construction service company had information that asbestos was present, yet neglected to act on it, meaning a licensable asbestos material was removed in an uncontrolled manner.” Jon

It appears the Devil is in the detail. Despite some well intentioned advice there are some conflicting comments from posters. However, I have read between the lines and sought some specialist independent advice. Stedman, I was particularly interested in your views being a CDM-C and I have made my feelings known to the CDM-C working on behalf of the client. I won't bore you with all the details but my main concern is the CDM-C has been economical with the pre-construction info regarding the asbestos cement removal. In fact this is it - 'It [is] understood that there is no Asbestos Register for the building and that no asbestos survey has been completed. As previously mentioned the removal of asbestos cement fascias is part of the proposed works. These works to be carried out by a competent contractor in compliance with all legislative requirements and industry best practices ensuring there is no risk to operatives or the residents.' The above 'information' would be a funny if it was not true. The problem is compounded by the fact that the PC wants to do the job and gets regular work from thee project management company who engage the CDM-C.As for Designer's RAs. In my experience they are a waste of time as generally they are of a generic nature (so much is) and worthless form a h&s perspective. Ron, yes this is a notifiable project lasting about 16 weeks. However, we need to put things in perspective, it is low risk and non-licensed work. If properly supervised and with a SSoW there should not be a problem. If ACMs are found within the flats then there could be aggro and I have recommended the PC ask for an intrusive survey before he starts the job. Interestingly, his tender came in at £18,000 lower than the next tender - I wonder why?