They still might not let you on unless you have a CSCS card which is another £30. Currently all you have is a certificate that says you have passed the H&S test which allows you to qualify for certain cards provided your employer signs the form to vouch for at least one years relevant site experience. Be careful who you waive the pass letter at. regards Yul

Thankyou, i am fully aware of my next course of action. My point was merely being aimed at the fact that i have been in the same job for 30 years, i have worked my way through the ranks. I am the named Safety Advisor for a Demolition company. I actually give Health & Safety advice to our operatives and our clients employees. I prepare all Risk Assessments and Method Statements, but alas, because i have not passed an exam that i would expect my 10 year old grandson to pass, i aparently do not have the required Health & Safety knowledge to recognise Hazards and associated Risks, merely because i have not completed a multiple choice CSCS test.

Rick As a responsible person you should be applying for a professionally qualified persons CSCS card to stand out from the rest and recognise your qualifications Regards Gary

CSCS again my pet hate. Rick you are only saying how a lot of us feel sadly with the UKCG laying down policy common sense could never take place. As late as last Thursday the same thing happened to me I have more construction qualifications than you can shake a stick at but refuse to get a CSCS card.(I got on to the site) Why should I get one then because I am only a lowly Tech Iosh but NVQ level 4 Waste Management and SIIRSM plus much more I would still have to do another NVQ to change the red card I would get into a Black ,Gold ,Silver or whatever other colour they come up with. I believe in the CSCS /CPCS card system because it shows the person has a basic knowledge of Health and Safety awareness and therefore the system should be commended. To show the understanding by some, of the system, some of our operatives were refused entry (but not for long) to a site because they did not have CSCS cards they all had CPCS as that is the category of cards Plant Operatives get. I have said it a few times and I will say it again it is a money spinner but until another more sensible system is introduced we must work with it. As Brett says it is a policy thing set by some companies but the poor person trying to ensure it works may not have the knowledge to implement it properly. Rick do not lower yourself by sticking the pass cert up their noses as I am afraid you could be in a long Q. Regards Alex

Phillip, good call. It's about time someone like IOSH put together a policy with other organisations whereby we do not have to walk around with a wheelbarrow full of cards. Working predominately in the railway industry I have numerous cards to carry as it is ie track/depot/access and yes, the God forsaken CSCS professional membership card. Surely, a couple of Masters in h&s plus CMIOSH should afford some discretion?

Phillip - there is also a supervisors course with the CCNSG that was much better than the basic 2 day course and only lasted 1 day. It was more about approach and management skills rather than the basics of H&S. But as brett stated earlier - it is more to do with policies and procedures. And I appreciate someone saying if my labourers have it why shouldnt you? Yes Rick - you have the certificates and the credits - but the plant are stating their minimum standards and if you dont have meet their standards thne you dont get in. Possibly a lot of people see it the like of CCNSG as very low quality - but I have seen scientists on the course that know nothing about COSHH and have struggled. If the client wants - we should supply - yes? David

Speaking from experience, so long as you have passed the test and got a registration number, the fact you have not yet received your card shouldn't stop your access to site. You could be the most qualified h&s person in the uk, but cscs is the industry standard, so without it unfortunately access is not permitted to some sites... It all depends on how desperate the QS is on getting his job done...!

Forum members may find this of interest: "A commentary on routes to competence in the construction sector" http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrpdf/rr877.pdf I particularly enjoyed pages 15/16.

Rick Whilst I sympathize with your dilemma with regards to site access, when your company received the order for the works, they would have received the site requirements. With this in mind you would have placed only operatives who hold the valid CSCS cards to the site yes? So what makes you any better than the the men working on site. One site rule for all. No I do not agree with the CSCS carding scheme, but I disagree more with the I deserve entry to site more than the men who are earning my wages. Lead by example and adhere to the rule, right or wrong, you expect others to follow what you say or require.

Good morning to all Just a few thoughts. The requirement for a CSCS card is usually based in company policy. I would suggest that in some cases implemented by those that do not fully comprehend what competency actually entails. Clients and CDM Coordinators state it as a requirement, and I would suggest that in some cases, without full understanding what they are after (when you ask a client for his CSCS card what response do you get?). To say that passing the CSCS H&S touch screen test is simple for someone with a good memory is unfortunate but is a fact. You can then get a visitors card ----- does this fulfill the requirement for entry onto site? I would suggest that in some cases the answer is yes. No experience of construction site required. Our Company policy is also CSCS card as a minimum, following what has increasingly become an industry expected standard, good or bad. Personally I take the view that CSCS IS the minimum with any other competency scheme normally trumping CSCS. I also take the time to assess individuals; someone visiting site with a recent NEBOSH Con Cert and/or years of experience in the construction industry would normally get my thumbs up as I would authorise access on the basis that the person is competent. After all competency is not restricted to the CSCS card scheme. Having a CSCS card is not always indicative of the job the holder are going to do on site. After all once you have a card why upgrade (more money) until it is due. I have been in the industry for over 30 years and entered the CSCS scheme before the touch screen test appeared (long a go). I do have a CSCS card (management level) but a few years ago let both by skilled card and supervisor card lapse as CSCS would not combine into one card (one fee). RayRapp I would confirm the view that a significant number of personnel already see the CSCS card as a money making scheme. Ron Hunter. Yes pages 15/16 are interesting. On a more sporting note: The last time I completed the CSCS touch test it took me 10 minutes - I went through it twice and sat there until the 10 minutes past. One of my H&S colleagues then completed his test deciding to set the time of 5 minutes. This was then bested by a supervisor who stated (I have no reason to doubt) that he completed and past his test in 4 minutes 45 seconds. Is this a time that can be beaten. Let the competition commence. Note that I do not condone that people try and best this time for the sake of it. I therefore suggest that the only rule for entry is that the test is passed.

I have a mixed opinion of CSCS. On the one had, it doesn't recognise things it ought to. For example, we have some highly qualified specialists - multiple degrees, post-graduate qualifications, and members of professional bodies, but overseas universities or the 'wrong' professional bodies, so CSCS don't recognise them as professionally qualified. On the other hand, people saying "surely my x y z degree means more than a CSCS card" - possibly, but do you carry your degree certificate with you to site, and who has authenticated it? Anyone can knock up a convincing looking certificate, and is the site bod supposed to recognise all acceptable ones? Carrying a lowest-common-denominator site-safety-awareness card does not seem to me to be a terrible imposition. If the test is so easy you can do it in five minutes with your eyes shut, just do it with your eyes shut, get the card, and then you can brandish it at the vanishingly few people that actually want to see it. As long as no-one sees it as anything more than a lowest-common-denominator, I don't see the harm, and think tehre is significant benefit in a universally-recognised card.

First off...No card...No site access. End of. And that is the way it should be. The card holder has at least shown a basic understanding of safety. The card holder is probably a skilled tradesman in his own right and in most cases well aware of the risks of the job and not some straight-out-of-tech clown with a NEBOSH general or Construction certificate and no site experience or trade to back it up, just something read from a book with a few bloodstained pictures in their mind As for myself, and other J.I.B. Electricians, we need the cscs to qualify for grading etc. Yes it is basic but it keeps people alive and that is what we are all aiming at. To belittle it is foolish at best and down right rude at the other end. How pompous to suggest that the cscs is a waste of time. We have RA's and method statements to aid us on-site and for the most part it works what we need is people in management who lead from the front with good H&S folks to back us up. Zimmy, Tech IOSH (and proud to be) ......Toys way out of the pram!

This topic has raised its ugly head again. When I last took an interest in this some couple of years ago, my recollection is that Hazel Harvey was on the verge of some sort of acceptance that IOSH/NEBOSH qualifications that are not NVQ's would be adequate. Did this ever come to fruition? (I am aware that there would still be a requirement to take the "touch screen test"). Rodger Ker

You surprise me Zimmy, Following the last CSCS update I attended no certification exempted anyone from the touch screen test for renewals. How did you manage to wangle that? CSCS don't even acknowledge cskills qualifications.

Just a thought here Brett My card is NOT just a cscs card it is a J.I.B. Approved Electricians card if that makes any difference mate. It's a skills card with added cscs endorsement Bob

Zimmy, I think they are a waste of time unless there is something specific on them to show what the person can do or is qualified to do, some of them do but for instance the basic operatives card can be obtained purely by sitting in front of a computer taking a test which has questions that are more about common sense than proving that you know even anything about Health & Safety. That could mean to me someone walking onto a site with absolutely no experience or qualifications who can then proceed to work after passing a little test of common sense. And yes i know 99.9% of people know what they are doing but that small percentage who don't and are only qualified with a basis CSCS test and card could be a danger to themselves never mind others.

I dispute that the H&S test is nothing but common sense - just a few examples: Who does the HASAWA imposes duties on? Everyone here knows that, but it's not 'common sense' that it's a duty on all at work - it could easily have been framed to be duties on employers only. What is a hazard? That's far from common sense - people get hazard and risk muddled all the time, even people that should know their H&S terminology. What goes in an accident book - when I talk to new starts (from school, college or university) relatively few know that. It's not common sense - it's something you need to know. And that's before you get to detail like angle of ladder, colour of cables, colour of fire extinguishers and so on. Why is it 'common sense' that yellow is 110V and black is CO2? That lot is from teh operative test. The Managerial test has even more that require knowledge and not just common sense. Yes there are some dozy questions. However, to suggest that they are all dozy or all only a matter of common sense is simply wrong. CSCS H&S test pass demonstrates a lowest acceptable level of H&S knowledge, and I think they is useful for that.

Decinomials comment re Regional HSE and CSCS as mandatory for consultants just typifies the wooly. ill focussed thinking in the HSE. CSCS is not and can never be regarded as training or a real test of knowledge. The NEBOSH Constr. Cert.at least has a claim to depth of knowledge, independent assessment and skilled setting of questions. This is contrary to CSCS which has been measurably wrong in its questions and out of date with information on a number of occassions. CSCS is not a competency test - by definition. It is a simple training test. Competence involves Skills, knowledge, Ability, Training, Experience, Behaviour and Attitude. Much of which is evidenced via CPD. The CDM acop actually contemplates such competency evidenced by CPD of some form BUT CSCS will not do this as it removes their cash flow. Training Organisation could set up a programme to do this that would encompass ALL training done by an operative over a period of time - coupled to some sort of personal record held by the individual evidencing his performance re H&S. This would unblock the problem of the last company holding the baby before renewal has to pay. It could be done with good will and the CSCS board could have a role maintaining such a register BUT it takes control away from them and the claimed kudos of being the HSE preferred tester of H&S knowledge in construction. I personally never held more than a visitor card for entering any site that was not my own.

Not disputing that CSCS is better than nothing...but only just. A multi-choice test at a computer is hardly showing competence on a construction site, a schoolboy could pass the test with a little homework. I think it is also the inflexibility with the system which grates people, which smacks of little more than a cash cow. Plus the fact that there is more than one competence card within the industry which makes it a bit of a joke. I am surprised that the construction and building industry assisted by safety institutions cannot devise a more meaningful process of assessing someone's competence on a construction site.

Zimmy, I agree with most of your (well put) points. Surely sparks etc and all tradesmen have enough elements of H&S knowledge, training ect in my mind should excel the basic touch screen test if not why not?