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mattyturton  
#1 Posted : 09 August 2011 14:14:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mattyturton

Hi All

I am just about to take handover of a new building within our premises, we are a large secondary college.

The front of the new building has been fitted with stainless steel netting to take shrubbery growing up to meet the grass roof.

The front of the building is adjacent to the public footpath running through the school, and the Netting is accessible to all.

My question is, what is the minimum I would have to do to stop any liability on the schools behalf in the event of somebody climbing up this netting and falling off the roof? There are currently no barriers or obstacles to anybody using this as a climbing frame!

The build has been overseen and signed off at each stage by the local authority.

Where does the liability lie? I appreciate it is our site, does anybody know of any similar cases I can research, or have a similar experience?

Thank you in advance for any help.

Best regards

Matt
Ferris38332  
#2 Posted : 09 August 2011 14:41:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Ferris38332

Matt,

In terms of liability the main areas of Law would be the OLA 1957 and 84. As a school I am assuming that the local authority has some degree of control over the premises and this may muddy the waters a little as to who is seen as the occupier, see Wheat V E. Lacon 1966 for an example of how differing occupiers can control a premises.

As for the presence of the netting I would defer back to the designer of that element (under the CDM regulations) and ask for details of there risk management in relation to this issue. I would of thought installing netting, that would be seen by all kids at the school as a climbing frame, should have sent alarm bells ringing amongst any CDMC or designer.

As to extent you go too to mitigate liability, this is a tricky one, look at Keown V Coventry Healthcare Trust 2006.
bob youel  
#3 Posted : 09 August 2011 15:26:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

Also speak to your regulation 7 adviser: If you have not got a R7 adviser, which I suspect is the case, you shopuld get one on board
Ron Hunter  
#4 Posted : 09 August 2011 15:41:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

I advise you challenge the Designer before formal handover. After that, it's a case of your building = your risk.
Switched-on designers out there should be aware of "attractive nuisance" risk issues and should have considered this at the design stage. Further mature planting (spiky stuff) could act as a suitable deterrent?
Graham Bullough  
#5 Posted : 09 August 2011 17:49:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Matt

Presumably the mesh size of the netting is sufficiently large to allow children and others to insert their feet and climb up the feature, otherwise you wouldn't have posted this topic.

As other responders have already advised, you should certainly raise your concern with the designer. Also, tell the school management about your concern if you haven't already done so. Though the headteacher/principal and other senior managers might well be away on holiday at present, it is likely that the site manager is around while projects are being carried out/completed during the school holidays. In addition, if the school is part of a local authority, it is also worth sharing your concern with the authority's H&S advisers.

Though you say that the building construction has been overseen and signed off by the local authority (presumably its building control dept), it doesn't necessarily mean that those involved were aware of the netting feature, especially if it has only just been fitted to the building.

Also, it's likely that many forums users will be intrigued by your reference to the grass roof: Do you or anyone else know if the grass will be allowed to grow long and wild or will it receive periodic mowing or strimming? If the latter, will the mower/strimmer operators be able to have safe access to and from the roof - and what measures have been provided or are planned to prevent them from falling off the roof?!!!
TFCSM  
#6 Posted : 09 August 2011 18:47:31(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
TFCSM

Graham Bullough wrote:

Also, it's likely that many forums users will be intrigued by your reference to the grass roof: Do you or anyone else know if the grass will be allowed to grow long and wild or will it receive periodic mowing or strimming? If the latter, will the mower/strimmer operators be able to have safe access to and from the roof - and what measures have been provided or are planned to prevent them from falling off the roof?!!!


I have worked on several projects which have incorporated a green roof. I asked the same questions when I first came upon them. Apparently the soil (if you can call it that) is sub standard and lacks nutrients for quality growth. The planting out consists of low level plants to ensure that the plants do not grow too fast or too high and that decomposition does not add weight to the roof and prevents more fertile compost being produced. This in turns negates the need for maintenance. Saying that though, all that I have seen have man-safe systems installed, I'm not a fan as they need to be maintained.

Back to the steel netting, it is such an obvious temptation to the kids and seems to me to be too prominent that the designer or CDMC did not consider it. Have you asked what the nettings breaking point is? It may well be designed to 'give' if a certain weight is placed on it, or even the fixings? This breaking point should not effect the plant growth as once trained to the netting, the plants will support their own weight or at the very least distribute it more evenly.

Questions you need to ask before taking control.
Graham Bullough  
#7 Posted : 10 August 2011 18:46:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

The green roofs I've seen on various old and/or rural buildings in Iceland, Norway and Alpine parts of Europe seem to work well. Assuming they are underlain by an effective waterproof layer of some sort, they probably provide very good insulation against heat loss/solar gain.

Also, as some of the roofs were on buildings located on hillsides, I think goats and sheep were able in a few cases to access the shallower pitched green roofs and keep their vegetation nibbled to presentable lengths. Roof edge protection probably wasn't considered necessary for sure-footed animals who were accustomed to natural steep slopes and craggy terrain!

This theme reminds me of a temporary surveyor job I had several decades ago with a water authority which had decided to allow farmers and others to graze sheep on the sizeable areas of grass at its various sewage works. This saved money and the need to employ people to keep the grass mown. Furthermore, the grazing agreements raised some extra revenue and had the additional advantage that the sheep kept the grass discreetly fertilised! Occasionally a sheep would somehow get past the fixed or moveable fencing and drown in an open sewage tanks, but at least no breach of safety law was involved.
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