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messyshaw  
#1 Posted : 21 August 2011 19:44:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
messyshaw

An NHS Trust I have dealings with are contemplating a 'ban' on all toasters (except those in the main Hospital kitchen) in order to reduce the disruption to patient care during unwanted fire alarm actuations. The details are still being discussed before consultation with the RBs, but the ban may be extended to other appliances bought in from home such as microwave ovens. The Trust are also concerned at the reputational risk if this is reported in the local media as 'elf & safety gone mad' etc Has anyone had any experience of introducing such a ban? How did it go and did it work?
RayRapp  
#2 Posted : 21 August 2011 20:12:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Toasters setting off the fire alarm is a constant problem in many premises. I have heard somewhere of toasters being removed, but can't remember where or when. I would have thought the best option in an enclosed kitchen would be to remove the smoke detectors and to fit heat detectors - job done.
Ron Hunter  
#3 Posted : 21 August 2011 23:10:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Something's gone sadly wrong when a NHS Trust Management Team is dithering over an issue impacting on patient care for fear of potential Daily Wail spin.
MaxPayne  
#4 Posted : 22 August 2011 11:16:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MaxPayne

ron hunter wrote:
Something's gone sadly wrong when a NHS Trust Management Team is dithering over an issue impacting on patient care for fear of potential Daily Wail spin.
Well said Ron.
Graham Bullough  
#5 Posted : 22 August 2011 13:06:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Assuming that the toasters and other equipment which might generate smoke are in kitchenettes, staff rest rooms and other enclosed locations, RayRapp's suggestion seems the most practical one. Also, as the situation described is likely to be a common one for hospitals and similar premises, hopefully other forum users with related experience and knowledge of such premises will respond to this topic. For example, do hospitals usually have multiple signal fire alarm systems with the first signal simply comprising an alert for staff to be ready to carry out a phased compartmentation and/or evacuation as appropriate? Also, do hospitals tend to have fire alarm systems with fully addressable activators, i.e. with control panels which display the exact location of any call point, smoke or fire detector which has been activated? p.s. Perhaps I'm just having an off-day, but what are "RBs"?
pastapickles  
#6 Posted : 22 August 2011 13:22:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
pastapickles

We have had a number of activation's relating to our toaster but rather than banning them we looked at the type of sensor in the area and had it swapped for a heat sensor rather than a smoke. Touch wood no activation's since. Rather than using the opportunity for health and safety to ban something, we changed things to make them work and fit the use of the area. I can imagine that the cost for the trust in changing a lot of detectors would be prohibitive but to help people swallow the pill (excuse the pun) of a ban tell them the cost of changing detectors and the cost to patient care.
John T Allen  
#7 Posted : 22 August 2011 16:06:04(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

I think RayRapp hit it on the head. If there are lots of false activations, the chances are the wrong sort of detectors are being used. Commonest detectors are ionisations ones, which are easily set off by toast, chips etc, even boiling kettles. Used to have this problem at one place, detector right outside kitchen, tea urn would regularly set it off. Swapped it for rate of rise detector, problem solved. Don't ban the toasters, microwaves etc, get the fire detection system right.
bilbo  
#8 Posted : 22 August 2011 16:37:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bilbo

The NHS guidance Firecode specifically requires unwanted fire signals from things such as toasters to be managed to specifically prevent the unnecessary disruption to patient care. To be fair we don't know the reasoning behind the proposed "ban" - reading between the lines and judging from "the ban may be extended to cover other appliances brought in from home" - maybe a ban on toasters IS the way forward because there is a proliferation of equipment that did not really ought to be there. If toasters are provided by the Trust, maintained properly, effectively cleaned and crumb trays emptied, & there is a managed approach to detection in the rooms where they are to be housed, that may be another matter entirely. Not right to condemn a ban without all the necessary background information.
decimomal  
#9 Posted : 22 August 2011 16:56:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
decimomal

messyshaw wrote:
the ban may be extended to other appliances bought in from home such as microwave ovens.
Why the heck do staff have to resort to bringing microwave ovens and toasters into the workplace in the first place?!!! This is a different scenario to such things being provided by the employer, in which case I would not advocate their being banned; but staff bringing in their own microwave oven beggars belief............I'm going for a lie down.............
Zimmy  
#10 Posted : 22 August 2011 18:50:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

Use heat detectors in kitchens (use the toaster in the kitchen)
messyshaw  
#11 Posted : 22 August 2011 20:31:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
messyshaw

Firstly: Graham, my apologies, RBs = 'Representative Bodies', aka Unions!!! It's because these talks haven't been completed yet that I can't go into too many details. The detection situation is that there are HD in all kitchen areas, but doors are often wedged, or smoke drifts to the corridor when someone enters/leaves the kitchen thereby activating the alarms away from the kitchens. The Trust cannot are aware of the range of additional ventilation systems (including those which are linked to toaster switches that isolate power supplies if the vents are turned off) but simply cannot afford to install scores of such units Some larger premises have a time delay system & double knock. Others do not. But any actuation - even if it triggers a staff search is still considered a disruption, as the 'response team' will be diverted from doing their usual day job. Again, with NHS finances tighter than a drum, upgrading a fire detection system to allow a time delay in small and medium sized sites is not seen as value for money (to be fair, if you had to decide to distribute cash between additional surgical operations, or allowing staff to eat toast, what would you do??) The issue is a 24hr problems but the consequences (esp disruption) are greater at night. The main kitchens may be closed and there are fewer staff, so bringing in a sandwich maker or traditional toaster - and using it in an unauthorised location is seen as a perk of the night shift. Management have tried the 'carrot' approach with warnings and a largely ignored communication strategy, but now I believe there is no alternative than the 'stick' approach of an outright ban. Whilst unauthorised toasters represent a medium increased risk of fire (cleaning, crumbs,PAT testing etc), this current project is 99% a disruption prevention exercise. The Trust have no cash or management appetite (sorry!!) to spend any money on changes to procedures, extra staff (for response teams), fire safety infrastructure or ventilation etc. So whatever anyone suggests on here, unless it's free, it will not be considered. What I am interested in is if anyone else has had any experience in such a ban. From internet searches, there have been a few that have reached the media, and I guess many more that haven't. I have to admit, taking into account the history and efforts made by the management in these matters, I reckon if you can't get through a shift without toast, then maybe you need to seek help, Crackers anyone?
chris42  
#12 Posted : 22 August 2011 23:06:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

I’m sure you are aware of the workplace regs and the need to provide a means of heating food, where hot food cannot be obtained in or reasonably near to the workplace. So if at night the kitchens are not open then this may end up being a problem for you. I’m not sure I like the comment about going without toast, seems a bit flippant when it sounds like the above is not being complied with. I guess working through the night in mid-winter you are happy to eat cold food, but I for one would not. I did have issues of employees bringing their own toasters and microwaves in, despite facilities being made available. When they were found they were at first told to remove them, and then when that did not work we cut the plugs off anything we found and arranged for disposal. We would find them in lockers and locked cupboards, sometimes hard wired in. It had sent the practice underground, something you need to watch for. This took a long time to work, but did in the end. Each step of the way we discussed the issues with the employee representatives. The reason they brought their own kit to work was they could not be bothered to walk for a few minutes to the facilities provided. Low cost solution – give them access to a part of the main kitchen that has a toaster / microwave etc, as one would have to assume there are no issues in these areas. I must guess you have got to the bottom of the problem of why they bring in their own equipment, whatever you intend to say must address this issue. I can only assume it is because a means of heating food is not provided and toast is cheap, quick and easy.
SBH  
#13 Posted : 23 August 2011 08:04:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SBH

We use the following directives. • Never leave the area whilst the toaster is being used. Toast could jam. • Clean the crumb trays after every use. • Ensure the room fire door is closed to prevent any potential triggering of the smoke detector in the corridors. Heat detection in pantry • Never locate toasters directly underneath wall units. • Only operate toasters in a well ventilated room. - Open windows before use • If you do burn toast – open all windows as far as possible and disconnect plug. • Do not use toasters that do not carry a current portable appliance test pass label. After two alerts in a zone / on a ward toasters will be confiscated Simple process which uses a bit of common sense but seems to work as we have reduced activations due to toasters by 90% SBH
RayRapp  
#14 Posted : 23 August 2011 08:59:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Having contributed and read all the posts it strikes me that it would not be beyond science to design/manufacture a toaster which can be set and/or locked to a specific heat level and thus prevent toast from burning - which is the root cause of the problem. Judging from the responses there is a demand for such a product.
Nick House  
#15 Posted : 23 August 2011 10:35:41(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

The problem with having a toaster with a set heat level/ cooking time is that if a user found that the resulting toast was not to their personal liking, they could easily pop it back in for a second go. This could then result in the same inherrent problem that most already encounter on occasion. Whilst I do not necessarily agree with banning them completely, I can empathise messy's (and the Trust's) dilemma.
Haines40637  
#16 Posted : 23 August 2011 11:34:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Haines40637

Keep the toasters in kitchens where you say there are heat detectors. Likely the premises will have an addressable fire alarm and detection system, where it is possible to reduce the sensitivity of individual smoke detectors i.e. the ones immediately outside the kitchen in the corridor which have caused previous alarms. The fire alarm engineer should be able to re-program individual smoke heads to a lower sensitivity (so more smoke is required for it to go into full alarm) probably from a laptop connected to the panel. This will cost a little bit of time but could be done during routine maintenance visit and does not require changing devices etc i.e. minimal cost. The risk of a fire starting in corridor should be low so desensitising a few individual heads should not be a problem. False alarms minimised and no toaster ban to enforce. However if you have an older conventional zoned alarm system you can't do this
Martin Mulholland  
#17 Posted : 23 August 2011 12:57:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Martin Mulholland

SBH wrote:
Toast could jam.
That's great!!
Clairel  
#18 Posted : 23 August 2011 13:00:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Richard Pickles wrote:
Rather than using the opportunity for health and safety to ban something, we changed things to make them work and fit the use of the area.
Absolutely how it should be.
L McCartney  
#19 Posted : 23 August 2011 13:34:12(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
L McCartney

Hi, we have procedures about staying with kitchen equipment whilst in use (except ordinary ovens - so you don't spend hours watching it!) e.g. toasters, microwave ovens and grills. We have a cleaning schedule for the equipment (our building cleaners don't do our equipment) which includes emptying crumb trays. Stopped the practice of toasting muffins etc as the toasters couldn't take that thickness or got larger toasters that could (depended on location). Also got people to bring in these toaster 'envelope' things which keep all the crumbs in them and means they can make toasties In the past I have removed toasters for a set period if there was more than one false activation in a short period of time - the Director wanted it taken away completely - when we were in a temporary building. My experience of hospitals it that there is a small kitchen available for wards if the patients need anything. We got toast etc through the night in certain circumstances. So if they are there near the wards the employees could use these? p.s. been in hospital when the intermittent fire alarm went - caused quite a panic to some patients as they were immobile and it took some encouragement to calm them down and assure them they wouldn't be left behind. I actually assisted the nurses with this although at time I was a patient and the nurses asked for help as they knew I as in H&S. We were all there for at least a few weeks so all knew one another. Lilian
O'Donnell54548  
#20 Posted : 23 August 2011 13:35:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
O'Donnell54548

As bilbo states NHS Firecode places a duty on reducing false alarms. Two years ago the Trust I work in, which has not had a single false alarm activated by a toaster in the last 7 years, banned toasters in all their buildings in order to comply with this duty. However they have not removed any of the toasters and they are included in the Trust PAT schedule!!!!
messyshaw  
#21 Posted : 23 August 2011 15:07:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
messyshaw

Clairel wrote:
Richard Pickles wrote:
Rather than using the opportunity for health and safety to ban something, we changed things to make them work and fit the use of the area.
Absolutely how it should be.
Just to confirm - this proposed ban is not a H&S directive and has not originated from H&S concerns. It's all to do with improving patient care by minimising disruption and is a proposal which is fully supported by the Senior Nursing Managers. The Trust have tried virtually all suggestions that have been suggested in this thread. Chris: Staff do have access to microwave ovens & hot water 24/7, but out of hours staff may have to walk a little further to access these areas - thus the domestic cooking appliances (esp toasters) used in inappropriate locations. A list of dos and don'ts will not stop this situation and the Trust are well past that as an option. For the record, I am totally opposed to banning items or practises as a first resort and dislike the ERIC H&S mnemonics which I believe encourages a negative 'can't-do' attitude. This proposal has gone through various risk assessed stages and for this unusual situation, I can't see any other option Thanks for everybody's input
decimomal  
#22 Posted : 23 August 2011 15:42:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
decimomal

A fascinating thread with a lot of good (and some not so good) proposals. I think Chris 42 has got it about right, particularly the bit about personal electrical appliances. By all means keep the Trust provided toasters etc, but all personal electrical appliances MUST be banned in my view. It appears you also have an issue with doors being wedged open that needs addressing.
L McCartney  
#23 Posted : 23 August 2011 15:56:25(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
L McCartney

Good luck as H&S might still get the blame - often wondered how thick skinned I am?
Invictus  
#24 Posted : 24 August 2011 07:21:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Why do you have toaters all over the place I thought that rest rooms and facilities are a requirement. Are toaters evrywhere because staff cannot be bothered walking to the facilities provided. We have areas that are 24 hr manned and these areas are provided with the equipment and we do not allow employees just to bring items from home, because these items are normally items no longer required as they have been replaced. These areas also have the correct detection fitted. Laziness is normally the reason why you will find kettles, toasters, microwaves etc. in office areas etc. Remove them and tell the employees to use the facilities provided. This is not a H&S issue it is a policy issue that management don't want to deal with.
Clairel  
#25 Posted : 24 August 2011 08:43:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

decimoMAL wrote:
but all personal electrical appliances MUST be banned in my view.
The trouble with that apparoach is that it also means patients electricals are also banned. Which means once when I've was in hospital I wasn't allowed to even dry my hair!!! Great care that when you're in for a while!!
decimomal  
#26 Posted : 24 August 2011 09:15:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
decimomal

Clairel wrote:
decimoMAL wrote:
but all personal electrical appliances MUST be banned in my view.
The trouble with that apparoach is that it also means patients electricals are also banned. Which means once when I've was in hospital I wasn't allowed to even dry my hair!!! Great care that when you're in for a while!!
Valid point Clairel.
Invictus  
#27 Posted : 24 August 2011 10:52:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

decimomal wrote:
Clairel wrote:
decimoMAL wrote:
but all personal electrical appliances MUST be banned in my view.
The trouble with that apparoach is that it also means patients electricals are also banned. Which means once when I've was in hospital I wasn't allowed to even dry my hair!!! Great care that when you're in for a while!!
Valid point Clairel.
How is that a valid point? 'I couldn't even dry my hair!!! great care that when your in for a while' It's like saying I couldn't even bake a cake because I couldn't bring my mixer in. It's a hospital not a hotel. So what if drying your hair upset others, would that be great care, When I was in hospital i couldn't use my tredmill to keep fit, use the weights or make my own dinners in the micro wave I asked my wife to bring in, some nurse told me that they had no room 'great care that' and I was in for a while.
decimomal  
#28 Posted : 24 August 2011 11:14:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
decimomal

I nearly went down that route farrell, but could not counter Claire's comments as articulately as you did! Perhaps 'valid point' was not the wisest comment on reflection, but as I am not familiar with the hospital environment I am not sure what facilities are provided for drying ones hair. Anyway ,it would not apply to me, follically challenged as I am.
Clairel  
#29 Posted : 24 August 2011 11:18:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Becuase I have very long hair and sitting around with wet hair for literally hours and hours is not good for you when you're not well!!!!!! And yes I needed to wash it. You ask any nurse, keeping clean is a good psychologically for patients. In fact nurses even write down in the notes when I patient has a desire to wash because it is a good indicator of how well they are feeling. I mean how dare you compare me needing to dry my hair with wanting to bake cakes!!!!!!!!
Jane Blunt  
#30 Posted : 24 August 2011 11:36:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jane Blunt

I am with Claire on this. A patient needs to have their basic hygiene and personal care needs met. Hair takes hours to dry, even for those with fairly short hair. I am sure those that do not choose to grow a beard feel that shaving is a basic hygiene need and would not like shavers banned. Luckily, they go into a low voltage socket - but imagine what such a blanket ban would be like if shavers went into a 240 volt socket!
decimomal  
#31 Posted : 24 August 2011 12:20:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
decimomal

Are they going to ban blankets as well then? (Sorry I couldn't resist).
Invictus  
#32 Posted : 24 August 2011 13:01:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Clairel wrote:
Becuase I have very long hair and sitting around with wet hair for literally hours and hours is not good for you when you're not well!!!!!! And yes I needed to wash it. You ask any nurse, keeping clean is a good psychologically for patients. In fact nurses even write down in the notes when I patient has a desire to wash because it is a good indicator of how well they are feeling. I mean how dare you compare me needing to dry my hair with wanting to bake cakes!!!!!!!!
It was the appliances and not the task I was refering to. I might like baking cakes and as it would therefore be psychologically beneficial are you saying it should be allowed. Were would it stop. People and note I do not say men can wet shave if they want, but I do concede it is hard to wet dry your hair. Still think there should be specific areas, so as not to put others at risk or disturb their peace.
paul.skyrme  
#33 Posted : 24 August 2011 13:20:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Jane Blunt wrote:
...Luckily, they go into a low voltage socket - but imagine what such a blanket ban would be like if shavers went into a 240 volt socket!
Jane, (et al) 240V a.c. is LOW voltage! Yes many electric shavers can operate on 1110V, however, a dedicated "shaver point" will often provide both voltage levels, both of which are low voltage. The "clever bit" is the electrical separation between the mains supply and the shaver outlet socket built into a "shaver point" which makes them "safer". There are still BS1363 to shaver socket adaptors for charging and powering these devices direct from a standard 13a socket. These do not normally have built in protection though.
Jane Blunt  
#34 Posted : 24 August 2011 13:26:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jane Blunt

I stand corrected, not having a lot of experience of electric shavers. Low voltage is an ambiguous term - the low voltage directive draws the line at 1000 V, but voltages in the range 50V ish upwards are likely to be dangerous. Therefore a ban on patients' own electrical equipment would have to include shavers. You can see where this is leading. A communal, hospital supplied hair dryer is one thing, a communal shaver would be quite another!! Manage the risk, don't impose bans.
Invictus  
#35 Posted : 24 August 2011 13:44:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

This discussion began with employees bringing in equipment from home, some felt this is up to the company to provide, which I agree with. Manage the risk don't impose a ban! You need to know what the risk are first, are you sure that every piece of equipment being brought in by patients is in relatively good condition? On our site when we have a contractor on site we ensure that the equipment being used is in good condition, has been PAT tested if electric etc. We now ask for electric equipment were possible to be cordless, so we manage the risk. If people for whatever reason need to have electrical items then the same should apply. Would you allow some one to put your health at risk by using poorly maintained equipment. You cannot always just say "manage the risk don't impose bans", why in case someone says it's H&S gone mad.
Graham Bullough  
#36 Posted : 24 August 2011 15:49:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Messyshaw - Belated thanks for explaining that RBs is the abbreviation for representative bodies. I thought it might have meant 'regulatory bodies', but could only think of one, i.e. the local fire authority, in relation to this topic, so decided against it. Come to think of it, "representative bodies" is also somewhat ambiguous, so better to use wording like 'union reps' or 'employee reps'. Hope you don't mind this aspect being used to support a general plea for forum users to avoid ambiguity including abbreviations which may not be commonly understood by forum users. OS&H and H&S ought to be okay considering that this forum is part of the IOSH website. Back to the main theme of this topic, namely smoke from toasters (and possibly other devices) brought in by staff and unwarranted activations of smoke detectors in a hospital. Some responders suggested that staff wanting toast - and presumably other types of food prepared by a potentially fumogenic (i.e. smoke creating) method should go to a central kitchen. However, this is surely impracticable because many hospitals tend to be large establishments with the result that moving between different places in them can take considerable time. Also, if staff have very limited time for official breaks they need ready access to rest rooms/areas with brewing up and light cooking facilities. This applies 24 hours a day. In understaffed hospital departments I guess that staff probably snatch breaks as and when they can during any lulls in the demands on them. As for electrical and other items brought in by or for patients, it seems likely that hospitals tend to have broadly similar policies and guidance about what can and cannot be brought in. Although anyone can respond to this topic, the best responses are surely likely to come from those with appropriate knowledge and experience of hospitals. IF it is the case that some hospitals have already found by experience that unwarranted activations of fire alarm systems by smoke from toasters can ONLY be tackled effectively by banning or significantly limiting toasters, etc., such information would be of use to you and the hospital you have written about. As for fears about possible media backlashes to a decision, the best thing seems to be to prepare a summary of the circumstances, including the frequency of unwarranted activations and especially their adverse consequences for patients and staff. If union and other reps understand the circumstances, even though they might not like the decisions made about them, this would be a pertinent fact and worth including in the summary.
NigelB  
#37 Posted : 24 August 2011 16:58:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NigelB

How do you bake a cake with a hair dryer? Surely it would take ages! Nigel
chris42  
#38 Posted : 25 August 2011 13:27:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

I stick by my suggestion of allowing access to toasters in the main / satellite kitchens. If I was an employee and given the choice of : 1 an outright ban or 2: limit their use to one or two locations which I may have to sacrifice some of my break time to in order to use. I would choose option 2 as some people will naturally be close enough and you never know when you might be moved closer or be able to arrange your duties to be in the right area at the right time. I do not work for a NHS trust, but I think the idea of these forums is to also get views on issues from outside your sector, to be able to share best practice ( is best practice seen as overzealous now ?, perhaps adequate is what should be aimed for !). Messyshaw made it very clear any solution that cost any money at all, was not going to be considered. I agree with the issues of allowing time to get to the facilities and the need for employees to ad hoc breaks and that must be factored in when designing the layout of satellite facilities. Unfortunately Messyshaw is stuck with what he has, and has to make the best of it. One would hope that the rest rooms with hot water and microwave (from Messyshaw's post) would not be the place to ban the toasters from and were within walking distance. On a lighter note this is especially for NigelB, on how he may use his hair dryer to help make cakes. see:- http://whatscookingameri...t/PegW/EasterEggCake.htm and scroll down to the section marked :- “Now, here is where you occasionally get into trouble.” Sounds fitting – perhaps I should make this my password for this web site. Apparently you can also use them to get the icing smooth.
NigelB  
#39 Posted : 25 August 2011 16:37:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NigelB

Chris 42 'Get out your hair dryer and gently warm the pan.' Priceless!! Thanks Chris. Nigel
Zimmy  
#40 Posted : 27 August 2011 08:02:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

All this for a slice of toast. If toast triggers the fire alarm a number of times the alarm sound tends to be ignored. That is a bad thing. As said above by others, remove the problem by using the thing in a room fit for purpose. Also ensure that everyone has personal fire extinguisher...just in case the is a real fire and people think it's 'toast time'
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