Toasters setting off the fire alarm is a constant problem in many premises. I have heard somewhere of toasters being removed, but can't remember where or when. I would have thought the best option in an enclosed kitchen would be to remove the smoke detectors and to fit heat detectors - job done.

Well said Ron.

We have had a number of activation's relating to our toaster but rather than banning them we looked at the type of sensor in the area and had it swapped for a heat sensor rather than a smoke.

Touch wood no activation's since.

Rather than using the opportunity for health and safety to ban something, we changed things to make them work and fit the use of the area.

I can imagine that the cost for the trust in changing a lot of detectors would be prohibitive but to help people swallow the pill (excuse the pun) of a ban tell them the cost of changing detectors and the cost to patient care.

The NHS guidance Firecode specifically requires unwanted fire signals from things such as toasters to be managed to specifically prevent the unnecessary disruption to patient care. To be fair we don't know the reasoning behind the proposed "ban" - reading between the lines and judging from "the ban may be extended to cover other appliances brought in from home" - maybe a ban on toasters IS the way forward because there is a proliferation of equipment that did not really ought to be there. If toasters are provided by the Trust, maintained properly, effectively cleaned and crumb trays emptied, & there is a managed approach to detection in the rooms where they are to be housed, that may be another matter entirely.

Not right to condemn a ban without all the necessary background information.

Use heat detectors in kitchens (use the toaster in the kitchen)

I’m sure you are aware of the workplace regs and the need to provide a means of heating food, where hot food cannot be obtained in or reasonably near to the workplace. So if at night the kitchens are not open then this may end up being a problem for you. I’m not sure I like the comment about going without toast, seems a bit flippant when it sounds like the above is not being complied with. I guess working through the night in mid-winter you are happy to eat cold food, but I for one would not.

I did have issues of employees bringing their own toasters and microwaves in, despite facilities being made available. When they were found they were at first told to remove them, and then when that did not work we cut the plugs off anything we found and arranged for disposal. We would find them in lockers and locked cupboards, sometimes hard wired in. It had sent the practice underground, something you need to watch for. This took a long time to work, but did in the end. Each step of the way we discussed the issues with the employee representatives. The reason they brought their own kit to work was they could not be bothered to walk for a few minutes to the facilities provided.

Low cost solution – give them access to a part of the main kitchen that has a toaster / microwave etc, as one would have to assume there are no issues in these areas. I must guess you have got to the bottom of the problem of why they bring in their own equipment, whatever you intend to say must address this issue. I can only assume it is because a means of heating food is not provided and toast is cheap, quick and easy.

Having contributed and read all the posts it strikes me that it would not be beyond science to design/manufacture a toaster which can be set and/or locked to a specific heat level and thus prevent toast from burning - which is the root cause of the problem. Judging from the responses there is a demand for such a product.

Keep the toasters in kitchens where you say there are heat detectors. Likely the premises will have an addressable fire alarm and detection system, where it is possible to reduce the sensitivity of individual smoke detectors i.e. the ones immediately outside the kitchen in the corridor which have caused previous alarms.
The fire alarm engineer should be able to re-program individual smoke heads to a lower sensitivity (so more smoke is required for it to go into full alarm) probably from a laptop connected to the panel. This will cost a little bit of time but could be done during routine maintenance visit and does not require changing devices etc i.e. minimal cost. The risk of a fire starting in corridor should be low so desensitising a few individual heads should not be a problem.
False alarms minimised and no toaster ban to enforce. However if you have an older conventional zoned alarm system you can't do this

Absolutely how it should be.

As bilbo states NHS Firecode places a duty on reducing false alarms. Two years ago the Trust I work in, which has not had a single false alarm activated by a toaster in the last 7 years, banned toasters in all their buildings in order to comply with this duty. However they have not removed any of the toasters and they are included in the Trust PAT schedule!!!!

A fascinating thread with a lot of good (and some not so good) proposals. I think Chris 42 has got it about right, particularly the bit about personal electrical appliances. By all means keep the Trust provided toasters etc, but all personal electrical appliances MUST be banned in my view. It appears you also have an issue with doors being wedged open that needs addressing.

Why do you have toaters all over the place I thought that rest rooms and facilities are a requirement. Are toaters evrywhere because staff cannot be bothered walking to the facilities provided. We have areas that are 24 hr manned and these areas are provided with the equipment and we do not allow employees just to bring items from home, because these items are normally items no longer required as they have been replaced. These areas also have the correct detection fitted.
Laziness is normally the reason why you will find kettles, toasters, microwaves etc. in office areas etc. Remove them and tell the employees to use the facilities provided. This is not a H&S issue it is a policy issue that management don't want to deal with.

Valid point Clairel.

I nearly went down that route farrell, but could not counter Claire's comments as articulately as you did!

Perhaps 'valid point' was not the wisest comment on reflection, but as I am not familiar with the hospital environment I am not sure what facilities are provided for drying ones hair. Anyway ,it would not apply to me, follically challenged as I am.

I am with Claire on this. A patient needs to have their basic hygiene and personal care needs met. Hair takes hours to dry, even for those with fairly short hair.

I am sure those that do not choose to grow a beard feel that shaving is a basic hygiene need and would not like shavers banned. Luckily, they go into a low voltage socket - but imagine what such a blanket ban would be like if shavers went into a 240 volt socket!

It was the appliances and not the task I was refering to. I might like baking cakes and as it would therefore be psychologically beneficial are you saying it should be allowed. Were would it stop. People and note I do not say men can wet shave if they want, but I do concede it is hard to wet dry your hair.
Still think there should be specific areas, so as not to put others at risk or disturb their peace.

I stand corrected, not having a lot of experience of electric shavers.

Low voltage is an ambiguous term - the low voltage directive draws the line at 1000 V, but voltages in the range 50V ish upwards are likely to be dangerous.

Therefore a ban on patients' own electrical equipment would have to include shavers. You can see where this is leading. A communal, hospital supplied hair dryer is one thing, a communal shaver would be quite another!!

Manage the risk, don't impose bans.

Messyshaw - Belated thanks for explaining that RBs is the abbreviation for representative bodies. I thought it might have meant 'regulatory bodies', but could only think of one, i.e. the local fire authority, in relation to this topic, so decided against it. Come to think of it, "representative bodies" is also somewhat ambiguous, so better to use wording like 'union reps' or 'employee reps'.

Hope you don't mind this aspect being used to support a general plea for forum users to avoid ambiguity including abbreviations which may not be commonly understood by forum users. OS&H and H&S ought to be okay considering that this forum is part of the IOSH website.

Back to the main theme of this topic, namely smoke from toasters (and possibly other devices) brought in by staff and unwarranted activations of smoke detectors in a hospital. Some responders suggested that staff wanting toast - and presumably other types of food prepared by a potentially fumogenic (i.e. smoke creating) method should go to a central kitchen. However, this is surely impracticable because many hospitals tend to be large establishments with the result that moving between different places in them can take considerable time. Also, if staff have very limited time for official breaks they need ready access to rest rooms/areas with brewing up and light cooking facilities. This applies 24 hours a day. In understaffed hospital departments I guess that staff probably snatch breaks as and when they can during any lulls in the demands on them.

As for electrical and other items brought in by or for patients, it seems likely that hospitals tend to have broadly similar policies and guidance about what can and cannot be brought in.

Although anyone can respond to this topic, the best responses are surely likely to come from those with appropriate knowledge and experience of hospitals. IF it is the case that some hospitals have already found by experience that unwarranted activations of fire alarm systems by smoke from toasters can ONLY be tackled effectively by banning or significantly limiting toasters, etc., such information would be of use to you and the hospital you have written about. As for fears about possible media backlashes to a decision, the best thing seems to be to prepare a summary of the circumstances, including the frequency of unwarranted activations and especially their adverse consequences for patients and staff. If union and other reps understand the circumstances, even though they might not like the decisions made about them, this would be a pertinent fact and worth including in the summary.

I stick by my suggestion of allowing access to toasters in the main / satellite kitchens. If I was an employee and given the choice of : 1 an outright ban or 2: limit their use to one or two locations which I may have to sacrifice some of my break time to in order to use. I would choose option 2 as some people will naturally be close enough and you never know when you might be moved closer or be able to arrange your duties to be in the right area at the right time.

I do not work for a NHS trust, but I think the idea of these forums is to also get views on issues from outside your sector, to be able to share best practice ( is best practice seen as overzealous now ?, perhaps adequate is what should be aimed for !). Messyshaw made it very clear any solution that cost any money at all, was not going to be considered.

I agree with the issues of allowing time to get to the facilities and the need for employees to ad hoc breaks and that must be factored in when designing the layout of satellite facilities. Unfortunately Messyshaw is stuck with what he has, and has to make the best of it. One would hope that the rest rooms with hot water and microwave (from Messyshaw's post) would not be the place to ban the toasters from and were within walking distance.

On a lighter note this is especially for NigelB, on how he may use his hair dryer to help make cakes. see:-

http://whatscookingameri...t/PegW/EasterEggCake.htm

and scroll down to the section marked :-

“Now, here is where you occasionally get into trouble.”

Sounds fitting – perhaps I should make this my password for this web site.

Apparently you can also use them to get the icing smooth.

All this for a slice of toast.

If toast triggers the fire alarm a number of times the alarm sound tends to be ignored. That is a bad thing. As said above by others, remove the problem by using the thing in a room fit for purpose. Also ensure that everyone has personal fire extinguisher...just in case the is a real fire and people think it's 'toast time'