I'm simply baffled as to how some practitioners are (presumably) comfortable preaching a 3-point contact for use of leaning ladders, but seem to find these same principles trivial when applied to stairs.
From a leadership, safety culture and risk perspective, please tell me how these are widely differing behavioural issues?

OK, since you asked:

1: ladders are not used multiple times a day by nearly all people

2: if you fall on stairs you do not normally have a vertical drop teh height of teh flight - you tumble. On a ladder, you drop

3: ladders are temporary equipment not rigidly built-into a larger structure

4: ladders have rounded rungs of a much smaller area than the treads of most stairs

5: ladders are narrower

6: ladders are steeper

7: ladders don't generally have handrails

Do you really have difficulty seeing any differences between the risks of ladders and the risks of stairs?


From a leadership point of view, micro-management of every aspect of life the moment you get to work is precisely the reason H&S 'leadership' gets a bad name. Telling people not to run on the stairs, is (in my opinion) on a par with telling them to do their shoe-laces up before walking around (anyone proposing a A5 leaflet on that?)

I don't propose to have leaflets, staff inductions or training telling people how to walk safely on the stairs. I don't propose telling them how to walk safely on the flat either (1: always make sure you have at least one eye open when walking, 2: check your shoe-laces are securely fastened before starting any walking, 3: do not attempt to walk through any doors without ensuring they are open first). Neither of these things indicate a cavalier disregard to H&S - slips trips and falls obviously can (and do) have life-changing effects on some people. However, I believe there are bigger things to worry about (for most people in most workplaces).

To claim that "Stairway safety is paramount" is, in my opinion, complete nonsense. I would be staggered if anyone actually believes stairway safety is paramount. Who starts their new start inductions with a session on stairway safety? In our staff induction processes we consider fire procedures (evacuation route, muster point etc), COSHH, good housekeeping, DSE workstation, manual handling, electrical appliances, first aid arrangements, D&A, accident reporting and more as being more important than stairway safety for everyone. Is anyone really going to claim those items are of lesser importance than stairway safety?


Finally, despite the implication of the post, I haven't seen anyone proposing three-point contact for using stairs, which rather proves the point that ladders and stairs are different things risk-wise.

Climbing and descending stairs is one of life's skills learned at a very early age, often before talking, reinforced every day by repeating the activity. Apart from breathing, drinking, eating, other bodily functions and walking it is hard to imagine any human activity that we are more practised in. We are competent.

..........from contributors presumably not working in construction, where we have essentially the same activities on ladders and stairs (within the structure being built and on scaffold assemblies).
Thanks to pete48 for the moral support!

achrn's points 1 -7 are pretty weak all-in, particularly in a construction context.
Point 7? "Ladders don't generally have handrails" !? Yes they do. They're called stiles, and you are required to hold on to them to climb up and down the ladder!

Re: DDA regulations on stairs

The stair nosing have to be a contrasting colour to the rest of the step - helpful to the partially sighted etc.

Weak in context, not weak in fact.

And in the context of:

http://forum.iosh.co.uk/...spx?g=posts&t=102029

I think that was the full-time whistle.

Be safe.

I know Ron wants to blow the full time whistle but, as we are playing added time, let me tell you have this has panned out here. We are writing a one-side-of-A4 common sense policy with each of the 7 or 8 bullets supported by a simple cartoon poster to be put on the stairs. Poster to be changed every week or so.

If there is sufficient demand I may even post a link to the first poster!

Ray Rapp stated at #40 that "People talking on the phone, texting, using a laptop, carrying a tray of drinks...do not need training or advice in how to use the stairs. They know better but are happy not to use a handrail. Just as people know when they are driving a vehicle they should not use a phone, text, use their sat nav..."

If such people do 'know better' with regard to stairs, why on earth do they persist in stupid behaviours, especially ones like texting which significantly divert their vision and hands? Isn't it more likely that they've forgotten, probably through being besotted with texting, or at least become blase about themselves? If so, suitable reminders may be appropriate though giving training about such matters is over the top. If a person is distracted by doing something daft on a stair, they tend only to put themselves at risk. Spilling a drink on a stair and doing nothing about it is different because it could pose a slip risk for other people. In this respect, giving appropriate advice is surely worthwhile, partly to try and reduce the incidences of spillages, and partly as such advice might be of use in defending against a claim stemming from a slip.

By contrast, doing things like using a hand-held mobile phone or texting while driving involves a much higher level of risk - of death or serious injury to those doing it and to others. Why do some drivers indulge in such behaviours?. Do they appreciate the risks they pose to themselves and others? My guess, for what it's worth, is that even if they have a slight inkling that it's risky, they have an obsession with having to keep in touch all the time and/or perhaps have an addiction to texting or using their laptops. Remember the forum topic earlier this year about a firm discovering that some of its drivers were hooked onto using Facebook while driving. Also, a major element in such behaviour surely is that if they do it and no harm ensues, they feel reassured that they can do it safely and over time become increasingly reinforced in this impression. (Such mental reinforcement is equally valid for various other risky behaviours.) Therefore, though forum users might debate about safety advice regarding stairs, firm advice and reminders about safe driving are vital.

Graham, thanks for highlighting my earlier passage - I thought it was very relevant to the discussion. People do know better, but it can't happen to me syndrome. Again, many people still use a mobile phone when driving and is often condoned by their employer. I would say a fine and points on their licence is obviously not much of a deterrent, that is not so either, it's because detection rates are so low. For example, you do not as a rule see people speeding through a Gatso, because they know the likelihood of getting caught and prosecuted is very high.

People are prepared to take silly risks because they believe an accident will not happen to them. Unsafe behaviour often rewards and continues, but probability dictates they or someone else may not be so fortunate - eventually. Some people will be swayed by the argument and some will carry on regardless.