Rank: Forum user 
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We have a fixed machine (not a bench grinder) that uses abrasive wheels and I am not happy with the current guarding arrangements.
I have looked at HSG17 but I am still after some assistance, can anyone offer any help ??
I can email some photos that I have.
Thanks for all help
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Rank: Forum user
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Are the guards fixed to the manufacturers instructions? Have you spoken to the manufaturers?
If you have exposed parts of any moving equipment, then you need to look at why they are not guarded, exposed parts should be to the absolute minimum to enable the equipment to be used, especially abrasive wheels due to bursting and entanglement etc.
If you email some pics or equipment types I may be able to help a little more?
Regards
Clive
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Rank: Super forum user
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Is it one of the large freestanding ones or something more akin to a large freestanding polisher? I have various machines in my head. More detail or photo's needed really to give you correct advice.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Clairel,
It's neither!
I have been in touch with lewes and it is a large production grinder.
Think of a centre lathe and it is more similar to that, with a tailstock mounted grinding wheel if you know a centre lathe.
Quite a challenge I suspect!
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Rank: Super forum user
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Still going to throw in my favourite comment as PUWER repealed the old abrasive wheel exemptions to expose the working area of the wheel. I do NOT agree that one can risk assess the exposure to the wheel and one is left with an absolute duty to securely fence/guard the dangerous parts, this includes the wheel itself.
Bob
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Rank: Super forum user
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quite bob,
However, if you totally enclose the wheel in close quarters then it can do no work thus the machine is unusable!
I have suggested to lewes a close but not tight fitting cowl around the wheel and a barrier guard capable of containing the energy of any remaining wheel disintegration between the wheel/work piece and the operator.
I believe the machine can be made sufficiently safe to meet PUWER regs but not in a simple manner.
I have actually worked on these machines in the past so i have some experience of the modus operandi & I have even experienced wheel failures due to process failures.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Paul
Totally agree it would be unusable except if operated remotely. The courts have made this position clear hence the reason for the exemption regs. We will no doubt at some point start with the run of abrasive wheel injuries and the HSE will recognise that the requirements should not have been repealed. I fully recognise the need to expose part of the wheel but equally I was concerned and still am at the seemingly cavalier attitude of the HSE in believing that risk assessment is all that is required for an organisation using this equipment. Give managers a chance!!! An accident and strict liability as far as civil damages are concerned
Bob
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Rank: Super forum user
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Bob, RA is never what the HSE prescribe as the only control. Where guarding is not possible due to the fact that it would prevent use of the machine it comes down to guard what you can and then ensure adequatew training, as is the case with many woodworking machines for example. You can't exactly guard the whole blade of a bandsaw and still use it, hence the need for training. Paul, I know what a centre lathe is, not sure I can visualize what you mean though. Is it the one where the flat part of the abrasive wheel is being used (not the ends). If so, it depends on what you are doing as to how much you can guard. I think I'd need to see a piccie to be sure. If you've sen the piccies and know the machine and don't feel you need any further input from anyone then go for it. By the way I was doing an internet search to see if I could see what you were referring to and came across this little gem on grinding wheel safety, haven't read it all but looked like quite a good guide at first glance! http://www.grindwellnort.../GrindingWheelSafety.pdf
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Rank: Super forum user
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Clarel,
If you now a centre lathe and the tailstock, then imagine a drill in a chuck fitted into the tailstock.
Now change the fixed drill, which is normal in a centre lathe for a rotating grinding wheel.
Very much like an internal cylindrical grinder if you know your machines, however the wheel is being used on the exterior of the part, which in this case is how the machine was designed.
It is very much like an overhung mounted point on a hand held die grinder but mounted in the tailstock again if that helps visualisation?
Does this help?
The outside diameter of the wheel is being used, not the "sides".
The wheel operates at the non operator side of the work chuck again relating to a centre lathe to assist in visualisation.
I am trying to help lewes as much as I can, but please anyone chip in.
I do know the type of machine from past experience.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Claire
I am sorry to say that according to the strict letter - the duty to fence is a Practicable one and cannot be ameliorated by the need to be able to use it. Bandsaws can be guarded but the problems are the same as you identify. You need formal derogations if you wish to allow exposure of the cuttting/abrading area not this current hotch potch relying on a nod and wink via a risk assessment
Bob
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Rank: Super forum user
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bob,
Whilst I can see your point and to a certain extent.
How can doubling the use time of a machine be practical?
This could be a conceivable result of fencing say a Band Re-Saw or even a narrow bandsaw that is manually fed if it were totally fenced apart from the material entry zone.
I have worked on a few from a maintenance, repair, modification etc. standpoint that are enclosed within noise enclosures and this adds to the operational and maintenance cost and not in an insignificant manner either.
There is also little benefit either as the operators are still in a hearing protection zone.
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Rank: New forum user
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A picture paints a thousand words
Can any sort of guard be fitted while the machine is running
Training and competence would be a main one if it cannot be guarded properly
Have you thought about any type of "dead mans handle", a foot switch perhaps that the operator must keep his foot on while the machine is running.
I understand that an abrasive wheel cannot be braked to an E-stop standard but is the grinding wheel running or is it the work piece (a quicker slow down could be installed)
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Rank: Super forum user
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Paul
You are forgetting that the duty is practicable ie if it can be done it must be done, the whole question of costs and economics is irrelevant in the context of this level of requirement. It would have been so simple to put in place the derogations at the time the regs were drafted but no the RA brain of the HSE was firmly in place and it causes issues just as it has done in Europe at times.
Bob
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Rank: Super forum user
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bob,
I think we basically agree, however, we are not quite aligned on what is reasonably practicable.
On this particular machine it is possible to fit a barrier guard between the operator and the work zone.
On a bandsaw you have to allow the timber to get to the blade thus you have to allow access to the blade.
If you look at brand new machines they still have open blade access in the cutting area.
These are Annexe 4 machines, so, they will have been signed off as meeting the safety requirements by a 3rd party.
Cuttell,
On this machine both the work & wheel rotate.
Grinding wheels can be braked to a stop in 10 seconds though it does take some engineering.
We used to do this with 36" & 42" diameter bonded and plated wheels at a previous employer of mine who was a machine manuf.
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