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steveclark  
#1 Posted : 09 September 2011 09:41:38(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
steveclark

Hello fellow forum users,
I would like to canvas your opinion on the wearing of the ceremonial dagger known as the Kirpan. There is much information on the religious arguments for wearing a Kirpan, but little other than Equality and Human Rights information in relation to the legislative stance. For example, where is the liability if a Kirpan wearer has it taken away from him and it is then used against another employee or indeed himself? I know this is a sensitive subject and therefore I would ask that responses are given the professional consideration that I know can be found on this forum. How have you dealt with delicate issue? Is it in fact an issue at all?

I have had a number of queries from colleauges, e.g. would it be permitted on an aircraft or in a prison? Where are the boundaries of religious tolerance with regard to safety, e.g. would a religion that included the use of drugs be permitted (extreme example in know).

I hope to have some thoughtful responses - Steve
tomorton  
#2 Posted : 09 September 2011 10:03:09(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
tomorton

Recent Tribunal case reported re Mr Dhinsa, a Sikh employed as a Prison Officer. Employer rejected request for permission to wear kirpan, partly on safety grounds. Mr Dhinsa brought Tribunal proceedings for indirect discrimination on grounds of race and religion.

Claim rejected as ban found proportionate means of achieving the legitimate aim; namely, protecting the safety of staff, members of the public and prisoners.
mylesfrancis  
#3 Posted : 09 September 2011 10:15:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mylesfrancis

IMHO, I don't think this is really an issue. From my albeit limited experience, most kirpans carried daily are around 3-4 inches long (only just over the size of a penknife which anybody could carry without committing an offence) and tend to be worn under clothing - most observers would not even be aware that one was being worn.

On the point about the wearer's liability, what would be the liability of somebody taking a carpenter's saw off them and using it to commit harm against somebody else? It's effectively the same situation - an individual is lawfully carrying something which could be used as a weapon and provided they are not voluntarily handing it over for the purpose of being used as a weapon, I see no real liability here. There are a whole host of things in any workplace which could be used as a weapon and I don't think an individual wearing a kirpan adds to the risk by any significant degree at all.

With regards to the boundaries, kirpans are not allowed to be carried on the person or in cabin baggage, but may be carried in hold baggage. I don't know about prisons, but my assumption would be that they aren't allowed (I'm basing that assumption on the notion that the prison population has a greater proportion of individuals who would use a weapon than the general population and therefore the risk is much greater).
Nick House  
#4 Posted : 09 September 2011 10:22:39(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

There is a specific exemption under the Criminal Justice Act 1988 relating to the wearing of Kirpan's, as they are classed as a religious article.

Although it is possible to 'ban' these from the workplace on the grounds of safety and security; anyone trying to do so would need to be extremely careful in their justification, as it could otherwise be classed as indirect discrimination on religious grounds.

As has already been said, most Sikhs wear their Kirpan under clothing, so in general it would not be a problem. The most important thing in the first instance would be to consult with any Sikh workers, raising any concerns and holding a sensible, rational and where possible, pragmatic discussion on the topic.
Clairel  
#5 Posted : 09 September 2011 11:09:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

mylesfrancis wrote:
IMHO, I don't think this is really an issue. From my albeit limited experience, most kirpans carried daily are around 3-4 inches long (only just over the size of a penknife which anybody could carry without committing an offence) and tend to be worn under clothing - most observers would not even be aware that one was being worn.

On the point about the wearer's liability, what would be the liability of somebody taking a carpenter's saw off them and using it to commit harm against somebody else? It's effectively the same situation - an individual is lawfully carrying something which could be used as a weapon and provided they are not voluntarily handing it over for the purpose of being used as a weapon, I see no real liability here. There are a whole host of things in any workplace which could be used as a weapon and I don't think an individual wearing a kirpan adds to the risk by any significant degree at all.

With regards to the boundaries, kirpans are not allowed to be carried on the person or in cabin baggage, but may be carried in hold baggage. I don't know about prisons, but my assumption would be that they aren't allowed (I'm basing that assumption on the notion that the prison population has a greater proportion of individuals who would use a weapon than the general population and therefore the risk is much greater).


Actually you are wrong, you are not allowed to carry around a penknife as it is considered to be a dangerous weapon. You would have to prove that it was work related tool that you needed on your person at that time, or be able to justify it in another way. A small blade can be just as deadly.

I see no reason to carry a religious dagger.
Nick House  
#6 Posted : 09 September 2011 11:32:32(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

Clairel wrote:
[
I see no reason to carry a religious dagger.


Do you also see no reason to wear a crucifix?
mylesfrancis  
#7 Posted : 09 September 2011 11:38:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mylesfrancis

Clairel wrote:
Actually you are wrong, you are not allowed to carry around a penknife as it is considered to be a dangerous weapon. You would have to prove that it was work related tool that you needed on your person at that time, or be able to justify it in another way. A small blade can be just as deadly.


To quote you Claire, actually you are wrong. By virtue of section 139(3) of the Criminal Justice Act, you are allowed to carry a folding pocketknife provided the blade does not exceed 3 inches in length.

For any other blade (or a folding pocketknife with a blade longer than 3 inches) then you would indeed need to justify that it was work related etc.
Clairel  
#8 Posted : 09 September 2011 11:51:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Nick House wrote:
Clairel wrote:
[
I see no reason to carry a religious dagger.


Do you also see no reason to wear a crucifix?


I'm an atheist and so I'm the wrong person to ask....but I see no reason why anyone should be allowed to carry around a weapon in the name of religion. In fact I see no reason why anyone should be exempt from any British law in the name of religion.
Brett Day SP  
#9 Posted : 09 September 2011 11:55:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Brett Day SP

Clairel wrote:
Actually you are wrong, you are not allowed to carry around a penknife as it is considered to be a dangerous weapon. You would have to prove that it was work related tool that you needed on your person at that time, or be able to justify it in another way. A small blade can be just as deadly.


The Criminal Justice Act (CJA) 1988 created an offence of having an article with a blade or point in a public place without good reason or lawful excuse.


The VCR Act expanded upon this and actually states a series of graduations regarding knives:


A penknife with a folding blade of no more than 3 inches that does not lock is classed as legal carry - no justification is required to have on the person.


A fixed blade knife is an offense without good reason or lawful excuse.


Folding blade knives with a lock, did not have a status under the CJA or VCR Act as in the consultation it was pointed out that most of the knives that would fall into this catagory were typically working tools and the lock was a safety device. It was left to the courts to apply 'common sense' and make judgement based on the person and the circumstances. Unfortunately the first few cases were tradesmen arrested by overzealous police officers who ended up in front of judges who were under great pressure to make examples of those carrying knives - even those with legitimate reasons, so we now have the situation where 'safety' knives, working folding knives with safety locks are now classed by precedent as being a fixed blade knife with associated restrictions.


Having had many conversations with the police as my bushcraft and survival instructor hat on, generally the police are the last people to ask about knives as the common line is that all knives are illegal offensive weapons. Having read the VCR Act it says different.


As an aside, Nick's comment about Kirpan's having an exemption he is spot on, likewise I know of several Sikhs who have a Kirpan where the blade has a small tacking weld so it cannot be drawn.

kenty  
#10 Posted : 09 September 2011 12:00:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
kenty

being ignorant what is VCR?
Brett Day SP  
#11 Posted : 09 September 2011 12:06:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Brett Day SP


Apologies!

The Violent Crime Reduction Act
firesafety101  
#12 Posted : 09 September 2011 12:07:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Here we go again.

Risk assessment!

A Kirpan that is not dangerous could be less of a risk than a crucifix.

Treat each case seperately and if the risk is low then why not?

A simple pen, ruler or ring binder can be extremely hazardous in the wrong hands.
HSSnail  
#13 Posted : 09 September 2011 12:39:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Steve I think your examples of Prison and Aircraft are extreme where as others have said It would be permissible to ban any knife or sharp implement.

In other workplaces some tolerance may be allowable. I cannot remember where but I have a feeling I read of a situation where the Kirpan was allowed provided it was wired into the scabbard, such that it could not be drawn easily but allowed compliance with the religious belief's. I could be wrong about this though.

Brian
barnaby  
#14 Posted : 09 September 2011 12:39:43(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

ChrisBurns wrote:
Here we go again.

Risk assessment!

A Kirpan that is not dangerous could be less of a risk than a crucifix.

Treat each case seperately and if the risk is low then why not?

A simple pen, ruler or ring binder can be extremely hazardous in the wrong hands.



Quite right. Some h&s people do love their black and white rules.
Graham Bullough  
#15 Posted : 09 September 2011 12:45:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

As a slight deviation from the main theme of this topic here's a bit of advice about going to places with security screening like court buildings.

When at work I usually carry a small double bladed folding penknife (longest blade= 2 inches) along with other things like several small screwdrivers and a mini-retractable tape measure. Though I wouldn't dream of carrying them on me or in my hand baggage when flying, I overloooked the fact that they were in my jacket pocket when I attended crown court some years ago. They set off the airport style metal detector gate used by the security staff at the building entrance. This was somewhat embarrassing as everyone seemed to hear the gate beeping and looked at me suspiciously. The offending items were promptly confiscated and held until I collected them on my way out. Among the standard advice printed on the receipt I received was something like "do not bring offensive items to court", so I didn't for the successive 2 weeks attending the same hearing. I'm not saying why I was attending or anything else about the hearing, except that it ended happily with acquittals on all charges!

Also, as ChrisBurns has just written, many normally innocuous items such as pens have the capacity to be used offensively. Many years ago I knew someone who had been in special forces and could regale some 50 different ways to eliminate someone silently with everyday objects. I don't think he mentioned all the ways and I've largely forgotten the ones he did.

Apparently fresh fruit, especially greengages, can also be used to deadly effect by trained people. Oops, sorry that was just in a Monty Python sketch!

p.s. Was also going to ask what VCR means in the context of this topic, but see that Brett has already given the answer. To echo previous pleas, please can forum users briefly give an explanation before using acronyms which might not be familiar to most users?
m  
#16 Posted : 09 September 2011 12:46:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
m

mylesfrancis wrote:
....On the point about the wearer's liability, what would be the liability of somebody taking a carpenter's saw off them and using it to commit harm against somebody else.....


I am not sure that this is a good example since a carpenter's saw is a tool required to do the job (same applies to a kitchen knife, etc) but a kirpan is not required.

Barnaby has the answer; a risk assessment in the context of the worker and the workplace.
achrn  
#17 Posted : 09 September 2011 13:00:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Brett Day SP wrote:

The Criminal Justice Act (CJA) 1988 created an offence of having an article with a blade or point in a public place without good reason or lawful excuse.


Although, on the bright side at least you do have the defence of good reason to carry almost anything. I prefer law that requires a good reason to be carrying any sort of knife to one that says it is a strict liability offence to carry some sorts of knife regardless of reason. That is, at least I can still take my billhook to the allotment - if they'd said no knives over 9" full stop, I wouldn't be able to.

With respect to knives, the rule that I think is wrong is the near-enough blanket ban on butterfly knives. It's the simplest, most durable, most reliable and therefore safest locking blade mechanism I know. But absolutely illegal to buy, sell, or import, as I understand it. Accordingly, you'll be on really sticky ground if a police officer finds one on you in a public place, even if you want to try the 'for work' or 'good reason' defence.
mylesfrancis  
#18 Posted : 09 September 2011 13:07:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mylesfrancis

m wrote:
mylesfrancis wrote:
....On the point about the wearer's liability, what would be the liability of somebody taking a carpenter's saw off them and using it to commit harm against somebody else.....


I am not sure that this is a good example since a carpenter's saw is a tool required to do the job (same applies to a kitchen knife, etc) but a kirpan is not required.


I take your point, but what I was trying to highlight is there are much more dangerous items in the workplace which we wouldn't even have a second thought about - and certainly not along the lines of "What if somebody took it off them and used it in an act of violence...".
Clairel  
#19 Posted : 09 September 2011 13:42:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Yes there are more dangerous things in the workplace and yes you can even use everyday items as weapons. But that's not the point is it. You have to draw a line somewhere. My problem arises when because of religion exceptions are made, regardless of what that religion is. It may be a ceremonial knife but so what, it is still a knife. You can't carry replica guns can you (I don't think) so why replica knives?
Safety Smurf  
#20 Posted : 09 September 2011 14:20:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

Clairel wrote:
You can't carry replica guns can you?


Yes. As long as 50% or more of its surface is brightly coloured in an approved colour. ;-)

(well, you did ask!)
chas  
#21 Posted : 09 September 2011 14:32:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chas

Clairel, you can carry replica guns, antique ones and indeed real (live firing) ones if suitably licensed/certificated (albeit not openly in public). As Safety Smurf said "well, you did ask". Apologies if this is off topic.
Brett Day SP  
#22 Posted : 09 September 2011 15:11:19(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Brett Day SP

Safety Smurf wrote:
Clairel wrote:
You can't carry replica guns can you?


Yes. As long as 50% or more of its surface is brightly coloured in an approved colour. ;-)

(well, you did ask!)


Well that's technically a Two Tone RIF (Replica Imitation Firearm). You wouldn't be an airsofter would you Safety Smurf ? Am currently a registered slirmisher so don't have to worry about the two tone now :-)

And you can carry Blank firing if you have a specified exclusion (Military renactor, stage manager / armourer, etc)
Brett Day SP  
#23 Posted : 09 September 2011 15:12:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Brett Day SP


Registered Skirmisher even !
Safety Smurf  
#24 Posted : 09 September 2011 15:26:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

No, not an airsofter. :-) Just use them for a bit back garden target competition with my son and my partner in between oportunities to get the air rifles out.
cliveg  
#25 Posted : 09 September 2011 18:49:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
cliveg

Nick is spot on, carrying a Kirpan is perfectly lawful if it is for genuine religious purposes. Any attempts to ban a person from carrying one would need to be very carefully thought through and justified.
steveclark  
#26 Posted : 09 September 2011 23:02:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
steveclark

Thank you to everyone who has responded. You may have already guessed but this query was initially raised by an HR professional. Having thought 'here we go again' it prompted a company wide review of Equality, cultural and internal safety and security policies.

The upshot is, as has been stated above; there is an exemption under UK legislation that allows a baptised Sikh to wear a Kirpan in a public place. Contributors also correctly highlighted that they are not permitted on aircraft (except on internal flights in India) and there is a requirement to either place them in hold baggage or hand them to flight attendants for safe keeping. There is a very good guidance document from the Equality and Human Rights Commission 'Sikh articles of faith in the workplace and public places' that sets out good sensible approaches and provides the reader with background to the issue. Banning all knives for safety reasons is permissable but only where this can be justtified following a risk assessment that determines the ban is for the wider benefit - this avoids indirect discrimination. However, as said above by other contributors, is this really a sensible approach? Given that the true religious purpose is symbolic and only worn be baptised and presumably devout Sikhs the wearer is honour bound not to use/draw the Kirpan (except in limited ceremonial uses). My organisation is considering permitting the wearing of Kirpan on condition that it is worn securely under outer clothing and thus cannot easily be taken from the wearer by an assailant with criminal intentions. The case law referred to above is interesting, but relates to the specific risks associated with the prison service where it was held on appeal that prison officers cannot wear a Kirpan; interestingly prison Chaplains are permitted to wear one.

It does however seem odd that those who wear the Kirpan and protest that they must be permitted to wear it at work are content (perhaps begrudgingly) to remove it for air travel - one could discuss this for hours but let's not.

The only queries we now have are: a) related to liability for insurance purposes (we await our insurers opinion, and b) related to the need to verify that the wearer is indeed a baptised Sikh and therefore has a justifiable reason for wearing it - this one is with our security services (mostly ex police officers) for an opinion on how the police service evaluate this (see page 9? of the guidance).

An interesting thread of responses - thank you again !
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