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markdm  
#1 Posted : 12 September 2011 10:23:39(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
markdm

My company are carrying out re-lining works on a dam at our biggest reservoir. In order for works to be carried out it has been necessary to drain the water from within it; this has created a large area of silt which acts like quicksand.
A comprehensive risk assessment has been made of the entire project prior to the silt hazard; the RA will now be updated to include this.
My big worry is that the local Fire and Rescue Service has said that they would not be able to perform a rescue on this site and although control measures are in place to minimize risk such as closure of the reservoir; security patrols; tons of signage in several languages throughout the large site; induction programme for anyone permitted to enter; daily toolbox talks etc.
Can anyone give me any pointers on this one please? Is there something that I’m missing or have not thought of?
Many thanks
firesafety101  
#2 Posted : 12 September 2011 12:24:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

markdm did you say local Fire and Rescue Service?

You should write to the Chief Fire officer and ask why they call themselves Fire and Rescue Service if they refuse to carry out such a rescue.

Or even the local council who have responsibility for the fire service.

In my day we would have relished the chance to practice rescue techniques and equipment at such a risk.

m  
#3 Posted : 12 September 2011 12:38:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
m

markdm wrote:
My big worry is that the local Fire and Rescue Service has said that they would not be able to perform a rescue on this site...


Have they said why they would not be able to perform a rescue?
Ron Hunter  
#4 Posted : 12 September 2011 12:44:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Fire Service have no absolute duty here (they might be away doing other things, and the response time would in any event be questionable).
If , despite the application of the heirarchy of controls via a process of risk assessment, a risk remains of persons falling and/or becoming entrapped, the responsibility to devise and maintain suitable means of rescue lies entirely with your Project Team.
degrees of risk  
#5 Posted : 12 September 2011 12:57:46(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
degrees of risk

Speak with and get the Local Fire and Rescue Service to liaise with http://www.baysearchandrescue.org.uk/ - Morecambe Bay
RayRapp  
#6 Posted : 12 September 2011 12:58:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Without knowing all the full facts it appears a unique and possibly very dangerous working environment. I suspect you may need advice and assistance from a specialist - can't say who that might be. Whatever the case, as the employer it is your responsibility to ensure the area is safe and emergency arrangements are in place before the work starts.

The fire brigade might be able to assist in recommending an individual or organisation who might be able to provide expert advice.

Good luck.
Ron Hunter  
#7 Posted : 12 September 2011 13:32:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

The risks to members of the public beyond the Project Site will presumably remain a consideration for the Water Authority who own the reservoir.
Irwin43241  
#8 Posted : 12 September 2011 14:50:27(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

I agree with comments that the so called Fire and Rescue Service need to clarify their position. There is specialist equipment to assist with rescue in this type of environment. It may be that they simply do not have it.
Nick House  
#9 Posted : 12 September 2011 15:08:11(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

Irwin43241 wrote:
I agree with comments that the so called Fire and Rescue Service need to clarify their position. There is specialist equipment to assist with rescue in this type of environment. It may be that they simply do not have it.


IMHO, using the phrase 'so called Fire and rescue Service' is a tad harsh. As has already been said, there is no absolute duty for them to respond. We do not know all of the facts about geographical location, associated hazards/ risks, etc. Nor do we know why the FRS has said what they have - they may well have a fully justifiable reason that makes perfect sense.

I think RayRapp may well have hit the nail squarely on the head here - liaising with the FRS with a view to possibly obtaining information on specialist companies/ advice may be the best option here.
PH2  
#10 Posted : 12 September 2011 15:10:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PH2

Mark,
as you will be relining the reservoir, presumably you will have to remove the silt anyway. The reservoir will possibly have a stone / concrete base. The methods for the silt removal appear to be either a traditional tracked excavator and "muck truck" or one of the new vacuum / suction excavators. Whatever method is chosen you will need to ensure that anyone working in the vicinity of the sloped embankment is protected from falling into the silt (barriers / fences / safety harnesses) and also site specific rescue plans.
kenty  
#11 Posted : 12 September 2011 15:16:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
kenty

Just to try and assist everyone that doesn't know the site, please see attached link to a news report on the reservoir in question. The site is the Val de la Mare reservoir in Jersey, so i suspect the comment about FRS not having the equipment may be correct.

http://www.channelonline...layArticle.asp?ID=495977
Ron Hunter  
#12 Posted : 12 September 2011 16:44:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Hmm......quicksand issues don't look to be top priority for the people standing at the bottom of the dam there........
firesafety101  
#13 Posted : 12 September 2011 17:09:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

A picture is worth a thousand words - a movie is even better.

Different scenario now.

I think that fact that public are ignoring warnings should be a worry and great efforts need to be made to protect the public from harm.

Looking at the machines in the dam they should become integral to any rescue plan, so involve the contractors and get them up to speed on their requirement.

Further why not get the students involved in ideas for rescue. I'm sure they would be very keen to assist.

RayRapp  
#14 Posted : 12 September 2011 19:11:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

'Looking at the machines in the dam they should become integral to any rescue plan, so involve the contractors and get them up to speed on their requirement.'

Chris, many serious accidents occur with plant and machinery when they are used for rescue. They are not designed for rescue and nor are those operating them trained in rescue techniques.
messyshaw  
#15 Posted : 12 September 2011 20:25:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
messyshaw

ron hunter wrote:
Fire Service have no absolute duty here (they might be away doing other things, and the response time would in any event be questionable).


I am not sure that is strictly true as The Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 does cover the duty of fire services to prepare for emergencies other than fire.

The Act formally recognises the broader role the Service has taken on over the last 50 years, beyond its traditional fire-fighting role. This includes rescue from road traffic accidents as well as responding to other serious incidents such as major flooding and the new terrorist threat.

The Act provides fire and rescue authorities with clear authority to equip and respond to specific local risks and the particular needs of their communities as identified, for example, in their Integrated Risk Management Plan. This could include co-responder schemes or other specialist activities such as rope-rescue or dealing with heath and moorland fires.

It is fair to say that it is not reasonable for a small F&RS to suddenly equip themselves to deal with an unplanned and temporary risk. For instance,Lancashire & Cumbria fire & rescue services have extensive knowledge and equipment to deal with quicksand types of jobs, as they have the treacherous sands at Morecambe Bay to consider.

Weston-Super-Mare's fire station has a hovercraft to attend incidents on their large beach and rural fire services have much more kit and training for animal rescues than London have (for obvious reasons).

However, there is an opportunity for the project team and F&RS here to enter into an advisory memorandum of understanding - even if the F&RS can't afford specialised kit and training. Perhaps, if the contract is huge, risk high and the fire service small - the project team could finance or part finance training & kit.

When I the fire service, I had several meetings to help contractors with their (mainly confined space) RAs. One concerned the UK's longest 'thrust bore' tunnelling attempt - which later failed dramatically(!). The other re cleaning to huge cereal hoppers on a London trading estate.

So ask again, and as already been said, go straight to the chief officer

markdm  
#16 Posted : 13 September 2011 10:10:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
markdm

Kenty wrote:
Just to try and assist everyone that doesn't know the site, please see attached link to a news report on the reservoir in question. The site is the Val de la Mare reservoir in Jersey, so i suspect the comment about FRS not having the equipment may be correct.

http://www.channelonline...layArticle.asp?ID=495977


Sorry; should have mentioned this initially. Thanks for all of your responses.
colinreeves  
#17 Posted : 13 September 2011 13:56:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
colinreeves

messyshaw wrote:
I am not sure that is strictly true as The Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 does cover the duty of fire services to prepare for emergencies other than fire.


Does this Act apply in Jersey?
kenty  
#18 Posted : 13 September 2011 16:34:02(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
kenty

No, The Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 does not apply in Jersey. Jersey is covered by the Fire Service (Jersey) Law 1959 & the Fire Service (General Provisions) Regulations 1970. Both pieces of legislation have been heavily amended over the years.

For anyone that wishes to research the legislation further, please see www.jerseylaw.je
Farrall900153  
#19 Posted : 13 September 2011 17:27:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Farrall900153

Mark,
You might like to contact the Burnham-on-Sea Rescue Hovercraft at http://burnham-on-sea.com/barb/.

They specialise in rescues such as recovering stranded walkers from the numerous mudflats off Burnham in Somerset, and may well be able to give you some advice about rescues in silt/ quicksand conditions etc.
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