I was going to join in the thread on HSE expenditure but decided that the lines where just too entrenched. So instead I have decided to start a new one. Last week one of our inspectors was on a farm where he took ill and had to be airlifted to hospital where he unfortunately died. One of his colleagues gave him CPR and at the same time was trying to talk to the ambulance service operator. The operator was more interested in getting the address of the incident than in giving the colleague advice on CPR. She seemed flummoxed by the fact that the location was a large farmer’s field in Devon, with no road name or house number. When he suggested that he give her his Grid Reference from his GPS she seemed even more confused. The question is what is the best way to explain to the emergency services about the location of an incident if it has not happened at a normal address ie house number, road, town, post code eg in field, forest, moor or on a large commercial site, such as a container port ? Can they deal with coordinates, grid reference etc? I am planning to upgrade our guidance on this matter and would appreciate some input especially from those forum members who have experience of the emergency services.

We've had similar before and found that grid references weren't any use to them. Postcode is apparantely the best as they just put this into their Sat Nav! I would in future insist of giving the grid reference to the operator as even if they can't make sense of it it will be helpful when the call is passed onto air ambulance etc. In our case we gave the postcode of a local farm who pointed them the right direction

What is wrong with using http://gridreferencefinder.com/# ? It could not be clearer than that and you get aerial map, street names and post code from this website.

Good topic to raise. It's a bit worrying that the emergency services operator described didn't seem to be acquainted with OS grid references. However, perhaps she was new to the job. However, in concentrating on getting details of the location involved, surely she was doing her main job. Also, though happy to be corrected, I understand that the job doesn't normally involve giving first aid advice. As MB1 has also suggested, it's helpful to name/describe prominent landmarks, road junctions, i.e. try to think of the location and surrounding area from the aerial perspective of the helicopter pilot. Mountain rescue teams and other organised groups may well have smoke or bright light flares to help guide pilots to an actual location, but they are in a minority. One possible alternative to a flare is to use LED torches or headlamps set to flashing mode (which might explain why such lamps usually have one or more flashing modes), or just wave one or more ordinary torches about to create a similar effect. If the weather is sunny, try shuggling something reflective about as the glints of sunlight produced can often be seen from a long distance away. It's a standard technique described in books about survival for people on the ground to attract the attention of searchers in aeroplanes or helicopters. Hope others with emergency service knowledge/connections can advise about the feasibility or otherwise of grid references. I was brought up with grid references and still use them occasionally, not least because using or simply poring over maps is one of my passions. (For me the best part of my geography 'O' level exam paper was the one which had questions requiring interpretation of an Ordnance Survey (OS) map extract.) Can forum users with offspring confirm whether or not maps and grid references are still included in school geography? GPS sets commonly operate with OS grid references, so surely such references continue to have a vital function nowadays!

Clairel - Many thanks for mentioning 999 SMS. I confess I didn't know about it and suspect that many others don't know either. For those who want some details about it, have a look at http://www.emergencysms.org.uk/ On a slight deviation from the main topic, I've noticed that some local authorities in the UK display names for road roundabouts in their areas, but most do not. Therefore, for some cases where an emergency service is required at or near an anonymous roundabout, it can be difficult for a caller to give the precise location to an emergency operator. Also, many main roads in urban and semi-urban areas have different names for different sections, but the names aren't always displayed at frequent intervals. Therefore, if such roads incorporate roundabouts with names, it might help if an emergency service caller can cite the name of the nearest roundabout and its position with respect to where help is needed. Some of the people I encounter have no idea whatsoever about which way is north, south, etc in relation to where they live and work, etc. Thus, if tell someone in this category (a geog-nostic?!), for example, to drive south along a specific road they look at me as if I'm talking in a rare foreign language. Though I'm admittedly a geographer at heart, am I expecting too much in hoping that people at least have a rough idea of their geographical orientation? p.s. Anyone want to start/join a campaign for action about anonymous roundabouts?!

I agree with stedman. I used to work for a major construction company erecting electricity pylons "in-the-middle-of-nowhere" and the standard instruction to construction teams was to use grid reference in the event of needing emergency services. This was particularly important when working in some parts of the UK where village names can be difficult to pronounce for non-locals. Regards, John

Graham I have joined one of these campaigns before it was a waste of time I was going round in circles all day and couldn't find the roundabouts because they were anonymous!

Hello, Just to confirm that like the Fire & Rescue, the police can and do use grid references, and the rural forces are more used to dealing with them. Can't see any reason why the ambulance service would be any different. Note that 999 calls go through to BT call centres first before being routed through to the local emergency services. The BT staff may not be so up to speed, and it have been at that point that the difficulty arose.

Good to see from cliveg's response that police and fire & rescue organisations can and do use grid references and, hopefully, ambulance organisations as well. However, judging from other responses, the impression that a few/some or many people who take 999 calls don't understand grid references is very worrying. If this is the case, surely there's a strong case for trying to persuade those in charge of such facilities to make appropriate changes. Those of us in OS&H and like-minded people should never accept the status quo if it is incorrect. As with some other situations, the more people who pester for change, the better! Also, if the situation with 999 centres causes unnecessary delays in casualties receiving paramedic support - and therefore significantly impairs the chances of some casualties to be saved - the pestering (cogent & polite, but nevertheless persistent) should be aimed at politicians and anyone else who can help change the situation. Okay, to be realistic, not all casualties with serious injuries can be saved, but this shouldn't diminish the overall aim of getting paramedic support to casualties as swiftly as possible. Another thought: This topic is also relevant to those of us who work with schools, especially secondary schools whose pupils are led on trips or go with only intermittent adult supervision (e.g. Duke of Edinburgh Award expeditions) into the countryside, especially wild remote areas. If we haven't already done so, we should be asking if everybody involved with such trips can understand and use grid references in an emergency situation.

Additionally the appropriate mobile phone may be needed - I know of one incident where the team involved had an ordinary [good one] mobile phone but it could not pick up a signal - they were lucky as the farmer passing by has a satellite direct phone [GPS?] and mans [an arbourist] life was saved otherwise he would have bled to death The signal strength, reception etc. for a mobile or radio in an area should be a consideration of the risk assessment Self rescue does not always mean equipping all staff with everything [but it would be nice] - just kit them out with what they need which may only mean adding in proper selection of staff and some proper training

As one who used to design Emergency Plans for potential aircraft crashes, all the Emergency Services have the capability of inputting post codes, grid refs or addresses into their onboard systems which will direct them to the location. I also read recently that all Control Centre operators will be undergoing additional training to cater for this exact situation. If all you have is a grid ref, you should tell the operator to write these numbers down and pass them to the recipient of the shout, whether it be Police, Fire, Ambulance or Coastguard. Also, as the person responsible for the introduction of the North Wales Air Ambulance, I can safely say that the grid ref is the most important one for the helimed. They put this directly into their INS and fly the most direct route to get there.

Excellent reply by Townshend1012 at #21 with good information including welcome news of relevant additional training for control centre operators. Over the weekend I happened to see most of a recording of last Friday morning's showing of BBC TV's "Helicopter Rescue" featuring the Yorkshire Air Ambulance service. Part of it included footage of a pilot and his navigator talking about "the grid", presumably the grid reference of the location to which were flying. The programme also featured some nasty accidents, including a woman with fingers badly damaged by the blades of a lawn mower she had been clearing and a chap (DIYer or possibly self-employed) whose face had had a close encounter with the rotating blade of an hand-held angle grinding tool. After making a gradual recovery he declared that he had learnt his lesson the hard way and henceforth would always wear a face visor when using the grinder! The contents of TV programmes like "Helicopter Rescue" and "Motorway Cops" make them interesting "reality" programmes to watch, as opposed to so-called 'reality' programmes like "Big Brother"! However, the scenarios featured in such programmes no doubt are carefully selected. Thus, they may create a false impression among some viewers because all the casualties featured seem to make full recoveries and nobody dies, when in real life some casualties either die or otherwise suffer permanent injury/disability. Anyhow, back towards the main topic to which can be applied the semi-whimsical epiphet "Grid refs rule okay" or its variant "Grid refs rule UK", so hope forum users are up to speed with using grid references and encourage others to do likewise. Last time I moved house my change of address advice included the grid reference of the new abode. This seemed to spark off a minor trend as a number of friends and relatives acknowledged my information and cited their own grid refs!

Hello Messyshaw Presumably you were somewhere in Devon at the time? The contract between BT and the emergency services is for them to connect the call to the control room for the area that the call was made from - and that works for either landline or mobile. They will know where you are to that geographic level, but would not be able to triangulate you to any closer than that.

There is an overflow agreement with neighbouring control rooms, but they don't normally get bounced that far. They must have been busy!