Not to my knowledge.

It was a shame you did not ask the trainer the same question. Indeed, what training is one 'required' to have to act as a banksman for vehicles accessing the public highway?

Honestly. I think it is only employees trying to make H&S difficult.

But i have instructed them to carry out the task with all control measures in place, as safely as posible, and without risk of injury to themselves.

Following an unfortunate incident at a previous employer we had all the refuse teams attend 'reversing assistant' training courses. I can not see the difference between this and your 'Banksman' training in reference to public roads?

Actually under HSE document Workplace Transport Safety: Deliveries #4 When manoeuvering on public roads, remember that public traffic and pedestrians have priority and that signallers have no legal authority to stop traffic on the public highway.''

Having no authority to stop traffic is not the same as illegal.

It means that the traffic are under no legal obligation to stop for you. Not that it is illegal for you to try and stop traffic to assist a vehicle.

Most of us can probably guess how the Police would respond to a request along the following lines: "We're told that only a police officer has the authority to stop traffic on a public highway. One of our lorries has to reverse from our premises onto (name of road) at about (state approx time) today. Therefore, please would you be kind enough to send one of your officers to give us a hand?"

Another semi-jocular thought: RCVs (refuse collection vehicles) invariably need to be reversed while on their rounds. Therefore, perhaps local authorities and other operators of such vehicles should be asking for a police officer to accompany each RCV !

A response from Clairel has just appeared as I type this and seems spot on. All sorts of situations occur on public highways for which it is very appropriate for people who are not police officers to stop or direct traffic. One good example is at an accident scene where it is in everybody's interests to protect people and property by trying to prevent approaching traffic from making things worse. However, it is important that people, especially those whose work includes guiding vehicles, know how to try to control traffic when necessary and in an effective and safe manner. The guys who crew RCVs in my local area certainly seem to do so, even when the road concerned is one of the busiest trunk roads in North West England.

There is a white goods shop close to where I live and its on a main road. There is only one way in to deliver and the vehicle has to reverse out.

A guy from the shop dons a hi-viz, stops people walking past, then waves the vehicle back. He does the same with the cars on the road.

I have seen this done a few times; even on a busy Saturday afternoon with football traffic!

Common sense prevailed.

Delivery vehicle gets out safely, and the guy from the shop thanks the drivers; a quick wave to them.

Then we all get on with our business.

I can imagine that this happens on a daily basis up and down the country.

Andy

Mmm...Can you just imagine a scenario..."M'lud, we ran the person down whilst reversing our HGV because we did not wish to fall foul of the law by providing a banksman onto a public highway."

I really don't know what this industry is coming to.

No it is not another elf'n'safety case. I instructed my employees (trained vehicle banksmen) to assist the driver reverse his vehicle into the premises from the roadway, they refused due to their understanding of the training carried out. I then had to threaten disciplinary action if the instruction was not carried out.

I prefer to use disciplinary as a last resort, but at the time it was my only option. Eventually I put on my hi-vis jacket and assisted the driver in carrying out his manoeuvre.

I simply wanted clarification so as to give further instruction to the staff.

Hi Guys this may be of help, its from a local police officer who gave me advice for an event and its traffic management

"With regards to traffic management the Police have no powers in law to arbitrarily direct traffic. It has to be for a lawful reason.
To employ Police staff to assist on the roads would involve the organisers/land owners approaching the Council for a Temporary Traffic Regulation Order (TTRO) adding certain prohibitions to certain areas of roads. This in itself would not give the Police the power to direct traffic, but would empower them as directed by the order. This would need to be applied for at the latest 28 days before hand to allow the Council to draft it and advertise the restrictions required, and would cost about several hundred pounds".

With this in mind your arguement for safety reasons would need to be adjusted as the Police do not have jurisdiction to manage traffic without a TTRO.

Kind regards

Stephen

Like RayRapp I can't see the connection between TTROs and the highly transient (often less than 30 seconds) act of reversing a large vehicle on a public highway. Also, Police officers routinely stop and direct traffic as necessary in relation to accidents and other emergencies on motorways and other highways.

As an aside regarding TTROs, I have the impression, rightly or wrongly, that they are mainly used for planned road or utility maintenance/repair projects which will require road stoppages or otherwise affect traffic flows e.g. by use of temporary traffic lights.

It is highly likely that, cumulatively, UK local authorities spend considerable amounts of money (i.e. our money as taxpayers) processing TTRO applications and placing related notices in local newspapers, etc. Such notices seem to be very detailed, difficult to understand and are probably read by very few people. If the coalition government is intent on reducing unnecessary costs to taxpayers, perhaps it should amend the TTRO legislation to allow/require councils to display temporary road signs at or near the affected roads to give motorists advance warning of impending closures, temporary traffic lights or lane restrictions, etc, and abandon what appear to be useless legal notices in newspapers. Also, TTRO legislation presumably incorporates exemptions to allow closures, etc to take place with little or no advance notice in connection with urgent work for emergencies, e.g. gas leaks, vehicle-damaged parapets on bridges, etc.

Roland

Are you sure that your trainer covered the relevant issues when directing traffic on the public highway?

There are issues to cover when instructing employees on the correct procedures to follow when guiding a reversing vehicle on site - signals, familiarity with the site, safety of other site operatives, blind corners, obstructions, etc., and other issues when halting the passage of road vehicles, pedestrians, etc., when on a public highway.

It may be that his training stated that it did not specifically cover highway issues and thus the reluctance of your staff to do so. Some further training may be the answer.

As mentioned previously, highway users are obliged to stop only for the police, etc., and thus you, I, or any other person, when considering it is necessary to attempt to stop traffic, must wait until a cooperative driver chooses to do so, or when the road is clear. Though such effect is considerably enhanced by high-vis clothing, hard hat and signage!

We have a similar situation in agriculture with some of the large harvesting machinery and the police inform me that we cannot actually stop traffic on the highway to allow a large machine out of a field but have to indicate our intention to do so and wait until a cooperative driver stops the traffic (wishful thinking) or wait until the traffic is clear. The front attachment on some of these machines mean that the driver cannot see the traffic when exiting the field.

Similarly, with cattle or sheep crossing the highway there is no obligation on the motorist to stop for the farmer. One such situation was a dairy farmer at his wits end in the Dales trying to get his cows across a very busy road with little, if any, cessation in the traffic, twice a day and every day. Though the Highways Authority had installed amber flashing lights, the traffic still would not stop! (As the lights never went red). The farmer informed me that his biggest safety risk everyday was simply getting his cows across the road.

Though the use of a banksman must be carefully assessed and used only when appropriate. See the following for when the use of a banksman was wrong: http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2010/coi-se-1312.htm, and http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2011/coi-se-2604.htm for when a banksman was not there but should have been.