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NEE' ONIONS MATE!  
#1 Posted : 14 November 2011 11:48:21(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NEE' ONIONS MATE!

I read a recent thread discussing risk assessment for opening/closing a car boot. the victim broke a finger and I (along with the majority of forum responders) would probably defend such a claim had it come my way. However, it set me thinking to what extent does the severity of an injury alter liability or the 'perception' of liability? If the victim had suffered a permanently disabling injury (perhaps the loss of a limb) would we be so quickly dismissive of the employer’s responsibility? Or would there be a little more intrusiveness into the legal issues around ‘acting in the course of the employer’s business’? Just a philosophical thought...
RayRapp  
#2 Posted : 14 November 2011 12:24:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

It is a good question but I doubt there is a simple answer! There is an argument that once an accident has occurred it can no longer be considered unforeseeable, which has some merit, but I suggest it should not be taken too literally because all accidents and consequences are possible - just that some are more probable than others. Again, all accidents have the potential for a serious injury. Thankfully most have minor consequences. Taking into account a 'worse case' scenario is in itself problematic, because health and safety is managed normally through probability of an outcome and not the worst outcome. The exception might be where there is a high risk or the outcome could vary between a minor injury or death ie coming into contact with electricity. There is a tendency to knee jerk when an incident occurs, particularly if it was deemed unlikely in the first place and/or a tragic outcome. Lessons should be learnt but what weight should be given, or liability if you prefer, to a consequence that was not reasonably foreseeable? From a criminal perspective only the court can really decide whether the controls were appropriate to the risk. That said, the law often does not fully appreciate a risk without injury and therefore the focus of the event is often on the consequence. Hindsight is often biased by even the most astute of people.
Jake  
#3 Posted : 14 November 2011 13:40:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

Logically speaking the severity of the incident shouldn't matter a jot! It would impact the reserve placed on any potential claim, but should not alter the perception of liability, surely? But then again if the severity was increased this would then affect the overall risk rating, so there may be an argument there. Enforcers, in my experience, without exception, will preach that once an accident has occurred (however unforeseeable it may have been) is now deemed foreseeable (as Ray states) and that a RA should have undertaken etc. etc. as it is clearly foreseeable... I disagree (and have argued the case successfully!), the mere fact an accident has occurred does not mean that it will or is now more likely to reoccur (case dependant). Using the example of the car boot, does the fact that accident occurred mean that it is foreseeable someone else will do the same? (it's foreseeable that that employee would, without additional training / instructions) but millions of people everyday open and close there car boots without problem..
colinreeves  
#4 Posted : 14 November 2011 13:46:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
colinreeves

I appreciate the difference between criminal and civil law. However, I recall one time when I was sitting on a "driving without due care" case when a pedestrian was injured to the extent that they were permanently in a wheelchair as a result of the incident. We had to make a decision on guilt or not on the basis of the facts and, once found guilty, had to sentence on the basis of to what extent there was evidence of a lack of care and the level of that lack of care in his driving. The result of the lack of care had to be excluded from the decision making (albeit difficult!)
bwm  
#5 Posted : 14 November 2011 14:06:09(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bwm

Liability is a separate issue to the extent of the injury but the severity is taken into account to decide the level of enforcement or fine. HSE's EMM looks at the risk gap between the actual risk (although not the actual injury) and benchmark and the severity of injury is used to decide the level of enforcement. I would disagree though that enforcers deem everything as forseeable just because it happened. As a former enfocer I can recall a few accidents that were unprecedented and not forseeable where no action was taken but these were few. Most had already occurred in similar circumstances - but again some would argue that forseeability is for the courts to decide.
RayRapp  
#6 Posted : 14 November 2011 19:45:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

As some have alluded to, there is a difference between criminal and civil law liability. They have different objectives and thresholds of guilt. The civil law via a personal injury claim is generally more concerned with redress for the victim as opposed to retribution by the state. Hence civil law liability is less onerous and more generous towards the victim. Indeed, it has developed into an 'art form' propagated by injury compensation lawyers requesting risk assessment, evidence of training, etc.
Canopener  
#7 Posted : 14 November 2011 20:15:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Please no, not the car boot thread :-) I personally don't think that the severity of the injury alters liability, in either civil or criminal cases however, I suppose it may well alter some peoples perception of it and it may have an affect on whether people pursue a case or not, possibly even the CPS in respect of a criminal case. I would guess that judges are often placed in the position of having to remind or direct a jury to try and ensure that their deliberations on liability aren't skewed by their consideration of the extent of the injury. If ever there was an example of civil claims becoming something of an art form as suggested by Ray, the car boot case must rank as a Van Gogh!
DP  
#8 Posted : 14 November 2011 20:33:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
DP

Here we go eyes to the sky the car boot thread!!!!! I started it so I’ll have a say here – it should not affect the outcome of liability, however it would certainly effect emotions on a site such as this. With regards forseeability and the perception of risk did not the recent tangerine viola case go some way to clearing these muddy waters? I did have a meeting with our loss adjusters regarding ‘carboot-gate’ I’m not posting on here though at the risk of being banned from ever posting again – anyone interested PM me.
RayRapp  
#9 Posted : 14 November 2011 22:08:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

'With regards forseeability and the perception of risk did not the recent tangerine viola case go some way to clearing these muddy waters?' DP, did I miss something or is this a metaphor for something else? The outcome of an incident has a huge bearing on whether the incident is prosecuted, the verdict and punishment. R v Porter [2008] is a classic regarding the former, as is The Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007, where unless there is a fatality a prosecution cannot proceed. In other cases not concerned with the CMCH Act, a fatality is an aggravating factor (Friskies Schedule) which will be taken into account by the Judge when conferring sentence, assuming a guilty verdict, of course. In civil cases the doctrine of 'res ispa loquitur' is often cited - 'the facts speak for themselves', implying that the outcome (injury) is the result of negligent action and without the need for direct evidence. So, whilst we may prefer the outcome of an incident does not unduly skew justice, the fact remains there are many examples and instances where this is clearly the case.
NEE' ONIONS MATE!  
#10 Posted : 15 November 2011 10:33:31(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NEE' ONIONS MATE!

I tend to agree, there shouldn’t be any link between severity of injury and liability. However, consider the situation where the victim suffers a serious/permanently disabling injury. A claim is made against the defendant who is then found to have no liability for what happened. Recovery of the (perhaps not inconsiderable)medical costs and special damages must then presumably pass to the NHS/DW&P/local authorities? Being able to establish liability with duty holders reduces financial burden on public sector, and sends the message out to industry that government won’t fund negligence. Therefore, perhaps there is greater scrutiny of DOC for severe/high cost cases? As a corollary to this, many low cost cases may never look in detail at DOC because a quick 'without predjudice' settlement is agreed in favour of a legal and potentially costly challenge?
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