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Linda G  
#1 Posted : 15 November 2011 09:54:46(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Linda G

Our engineers currently undertake welding activities that are on safety critical items of plant; can any member advise on what welding qualification would be appropriate for this type of work and the required refresher periods. Do we need to provide training to skilled engineers or can we source certification for them via testing without having to train?
boblewis  
#2 Posted : 15 November 2011 10:45:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Linda

It is really more a question of compatence as this is the fundamental requirement especially in construction. You could do no better than to read the below linked document.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/hu...rs/topics/mancomppt1.pdf

Bob
bob youel  
#3 Posted : 15 November 2011 11:52:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

If U are currently undertaking welding activities on safety critical parts and your guys are not suitably trained, skilled etc and insurance inspected e.g. Coded to an approved BS/ISO/ASME etc standard, then I advise you to stop welding at once and talk to your insurance provider who should be able to help noting that it was Lloyd's, Vulcan or similar that were the specialist insurer in my days [Lloyd's etc. undertook the welding test / examination and not the companies day to day insurer]

Passing a coded welding test is usually far beyond the capabilities of many individuals irrespective of their other skills as millions of failed test pieces testify as I would argue that it is more an art than a mechanical exercise e.g. in the early days of the off-shore industry in the European waters it was felt that divers could be trained to be coded welders but it was soon realised that the training had to be the other way around - this upset many kudos types as a diver is seen as a kudos job but a welder is seen as a none kudos job

Things to consider include
* What U are to do with staff who weld now but fail the coded test as they will not be allowed to weld safety critical parts until they pass the test/s
* The costs of the tests and re-tests [re-tests are a subject on their own]
bob youel  
#4 Posted : 15 November 2011 11:57:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

A story about Coded welders and HR - Other managers


I remember that there were many occasions where those staff who gave the most trouble to HR etc. were the only ones who could pass the coded tests - It was fun to watch as without the Coded welders the companies would get no work
Linda G  
#5 Posted : 15 November 2011 12:20:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Linda G

Thanks Bob, thankfully the engineers who carry out our recognised safety critical work are coded, however, being new to the organisation, I have uncovered a few anomalies and need to be sure of the facts before I go upsetting the apple cart!

I also need to find out what are the rules on re-certification periods.

Regards

Linda
Linda G  
#6 Posted : 15 November 2011 12:21:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Linda G

Thanks Bob (boblewis) that document is very useful in connection with the training matrix i am currently undertaking.

BR Linda
chris42  
#7 Posted : 15 November 2011 12:41:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

This is a bigger subject than you think. I’m assuming when you say safety critical you are talking structural, and you will need coded welders, but also you will need someone to specify weld size and type etc ( Welding Engineer) and someone to test the welds after –ie NDT ( Non-destructive testing : visual and possibly ultra-sonic, though there are other types). Coding of welders if I remember correctly is re test every 2 years, but they also have to keep a log book 6 monthly, ie they need to keep doing the welding they are coded for and record it or back to re test. Coding is normally for weld positions, horizontal, vertical or overhead etc. Then you have different welding methods, MMA, mig/ tig etc ( Manual metal arc, metal inert gas, tungsten inert gas). The weld engineer will have to produce welding procedures, for the coded welders to follow.

Your best bet is to contact the Welding institute who are a helpful institute and who will be able to advise you properly on your specific needs. If they will not help without you paying ( Though I have found them helpful) you may want to consider talking to a local steel fabrication company who will have a welding engineer and ask for their help as an initial way of finding out about what you need to find out about. You never know they may even do you a deal, if this is only a requirement now and then.

Hope this is helpful

PS Bob I’m also familiar with the scenario you describe, ultimately they got their comeuppance.
bob youel  
#8 Posted : 15 November 2011 13:05:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

The rules on re-certification periods

L
U may not need to recertify at all in some cases as coded works is an ongoing exercise where every weld should go through a 100% inspection every time. However where NDT is OK some 'tests to destruction' may be needed and most none pipe tests e.g. Fabrication brackets & similar in my day were undertaken on a 6 monthly rolling program

Again talk to your insurers for more support
Lexyboy  
#9 Posted : 15 November 2011 13:40:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
lexyboy

Linda, you dont actually state what your company does, other than that your Engineers undertake welding activities that are on safety critical items of plant.

Like Bob Youel states, if your engineers are not coded, I would also advise you to stop the process and arrange for the necessary training & testing required to achieve coded status.

As to what code it rather depends on the relevant industry & standards that are specified. In mine, Oil & Gas & Energy related, it is generally ASME IX & BS EN 288 supported by relevant client specifications, and witnessed by an independant 3rd Party Inspection process, generally Lloyds, DNV, Plant Safety or whatever has been agreed with the client.

In many fabrication companies, the first step is to get the weld procedure itself qualified, generally this will consist of the relevant material (Pipe to pipe, Plate to Pipe, Plate to Plate, T-Piece or whatever is specified by the standards) surpaces being prepared, Non Destructive Tested (ie Dye Penetrant Inspection on Non Ferrous Materials, Magnetic Particle Inspection on Ferrous Materials), usually welded together by the company's best welder (in order to obtain the relevant parameters such as weld speed, heat input, pre-heat, etc). The weld itself is then subjected to relevant NDT again, Dye Pen, MPI, and usually Ultrasonic Inspection and often X-Ray (dependant on standards/client requirements). The test piece is then sent off to an independant test lab for destructive testing (charpy impacts, hardness, tensile tests, weld x-section macro/micro photographs etc) all witnessed by company & independent inspection authority. At that point if all testing passes the procedure is then approved. The welder is qualified and a separate qualification is then approved by the Independant Inspection Authority. Adiitional welders requiring qualification must then use the same parameters specified within the qualified procedure when constructing their test piece, which is only subjected to NDT inspection only - No additional destructive testing is required.

A point to bear in mind, the welders can then only be qualified to that procedure within the essential variables specified by the relevant standard used. If an essential variable changes ie material type, welding wire, heat input, material thickness, pre-heat temperatures, post weld heat treatment weld position, etc then a new procedure must be raised and thus new welder qualifications.

Generally a qualification is only valid for 6months on the basis that the procedure has been followed regularly. It can be re-approved by an inhouse employee on the basis they hold the appropriate qualifications (ie PCN/CSWIP welding inspector), but must be re-approved at least annually by the Independant Inspection Authority.

One thing I can say is there are so many variables to watch out for, as such it is a specialised subject, which can bring its own problems, especially within the material properties/metallurgy aspect.

Sorry for being a little long winded, but as various posters state, it is often best to seek external expertise where applicable - the welding institute, welding wire manufacturers (Esab, Phillips, Oerlikon, etc), your own suppliers of weld consumables/equipment, etc are very often able to assist.

Alex
Linda G  
#10 Posted : 15 November 2011 17:22:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Linda G

My goodness what a can of worms I have opened up here! Thank you all for your advice; I am currently going through the training files for several of our engineers so that I can understand where we are with this; the good news is that they are coded (although I was told by a supervisor that they were not and our computer records did not reflect that they were either, but that's a different matter)! The types of welding undertaken are structural on mobile plant and machinery used mainly in the extractive and building industries and I am now on the case to ensure, taking lexyboys comments on board, that we have met our duty of care here. Thanks again

Linda
Linda G  
#11 Posted : 15 November 2011 17:26:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Linda G

chris42 wrote:
This is a bigger subject than you think............. thanks Chris, i have taken on board your comments however situation is not as bad as i first thought (see my last post). Thanks again, Linda
chris42  
#12 Posted : 15 November 2011 22:10:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Oops I forgot to put MPI in the NDT bit, and I generally agree with Lexyboy, but I thought BSEN 288 had been superseded by an ISO now ? (Easy enough to check on the BSI web site). Additionally our welders could have their log / cert signed every 6 months, but had to be tested (externally verified) every 2 years not every year. I guess it may be different in different industries. The area I worked all the welding would be considered safety critical ( If you want to know what it was PM me).
Allan Jones  
#13 Posted : 15 November 2011 22:32:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Allan Jones

Speak to TWI, those guys are the specialists and are very helpful.
http://www.twiprofessional.com/
paul.skyrme  
#14 Posted : 16 November 2011 21:11:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Just a few comments.
If your engineers are doing the welding then they will be welding engineers so you will not need a specialist welding engineer as those guys will be sufficiently competent to produce their own welding procedures and documents.
They will also be the ones to advise you on these requirements as being professional welding engineers they will hopefully be members of one of the engineering institutes and thus registered with the Engineering Council at either IEng or CEng level, so I would suggest you start with them as they are within your organisation, and are obviously sufficiently competent as they are professional engineers so they will know more about this than anyone.
They must be able to give you the information you require first hand directly related to your organisation.
Lexyboy  
#15 Posted : 17 November 2011 10:11:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
lexyboy

Chris42

You have kindly pointed out a reminder (one of the disadvantages of having too many hats, especially in a QHSE Manager role) whilst BS EN 288 was never formally released as an ISO standard, it has indeed been replaced by one, namely BS EN ISO 15614 (thanks to my QA Engineer for kindly reminding me).

Just a pity its not a friday!

Alex
bob youel  
#16 Posted : 18 November 2011 09:17:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

Why would people [engineers] undertaking welding ops be welding engineers? As a welder and a welding engineer are 2 different things? Its like saying that a first aider who puts a plaster on is a doctor who can also put a plaster on
Lexyboy  
#17 Posted : 18 November 2011 10:50:12(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
lexyboy

Got to share Bob Youel's sentiments, and agree with his interpretation.

There are many courses to pass, coupled with many years experience before one can call themselves a certified welding inspector/engineer.

http://www.cswip.com/pdf...ion%20January%202011.pdf

Should give some guidance

Alex
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