Morning all,

This morning I attempted to board my usual train but couldn't believe the platform had a layer of ice on it. After carefully negotiating the entire length of the platform (only a single door opens at this stop), I approached the door but slipped once I got onto one foot.

Luckily I didn't fall but I did jar my back!

The guard warned everyone boarding to 'be careful as it's slippery' and communicated the hazard at the next Station. He admitted he had no confidence with the response he got from the Station and further escalated the problem (once prompted by me).

I cannot believe that a railway platform can be left in an icy condition.

Your thoughts please..

DP,

Around 5 carriages (100M) x 2M.

Simon

DP, an interesting angle!

Platform with unguarded edge, frequent train movements, live rail and lots of people.

Then, add ice.

I'd be keen to ensure the platform cannot freeze over or is de-iced religiously in consideration to the above. Had someone slipped and fell onto the rails (foreseeable), where would this lead to in court? Was this preventable?

Simon

As I have stated I'm trying to get some measure of balance here - an area of that size would require substantial girt and manpower to cover - this resource is not just there ready for a bit of bad weather is it.

The guard commences this task - what about his other duties which will include safety arrangements.

Is there not a big yellow line you have to stand behind to keep you away from the track?

Murray - so we spend millions on grit and men waiting for ice to prevent something (to the best of my knowledge) has never occurred before? We have a lot of platforms in the UK.

I agree this scenario present much more risk than a supermarket car park.

Sorry but I thought the psot read that he slipped whilst on one foot getting onto the train. If this is the case then how is he going to stand behined the yellow line. Unless of course he just jumps.

Gents, my risk management approach appears to be somewhat different than yours!

Right or wrong, practical or impractical, I feel this significant risk should be eliminated or managed by the train operator without fail. I'm struggling to see a robust defense they could put together if this event is realised.

Thanks for your interesting views.

Simon

It's approaching winter, it gets cold, it freezes, it's a natural seasonal hazard: that's the situation we have in UK.

It is nonsense to expect every open station platform to be entirely ice free, every day from the beginning of December until mid-April. As previous posters have stated the magnitude of the task is gigantic.

SP, this is your usual station. Has it ever been icy before? Did you realise it was cold this morning? Did you choose to use appropriate footwear for your journey via the potentially icy train platform?

SP, I am advocating a reasonable approach. I don't think it is reasonable to expect that every platform will be gritted on the morning of the first winter's frost.

The gritting of roads is a regular topic on this forums and is (in my opinion) dealing with a different level of risk: multiple fatalities, severe injuries and road transport gridlock, as opposed to a bruised behind or broken ankle or wrist.

Got to agree with Stuff4blokes, its winter it happens every year.

I am sure that if people were slipping onto the tracks from icy platforms there would be a public outcry and we would have all read about it in the Daily Mail.

From my experience when you slip on ice on a flat surface you fall more or less vertically not forwards, backwards or sideways you wouldnt go over the edge, the only time you are near the edge is when the train is present and does it not protect the edge?

quote=flysafe]Got to agree with Stuff4blokes, its winter it happens every year.

I am sure that if people were slipping onto the tracks from icy platforms there would be a public outcry and we would have all read about it in the Daily Mail.

From my experience when you slip on ice on a flat surface you fall more or less vertically not forwards, backwards or sideways you wouldn't go over the edge, the only time you are near the edge is when the train is present and does it not protect the edge?

Agree with Graham and Stuff4blokes.

Graham: you may be heartened to hear that our stores (nationwide) sold out of overshoe ice grips within several days causing us to put in a hasty re-order for more supplies. So, perhaps the general public are more aware now after last winter.

Geoff

Foreseeable. The train/platform interface and fall potential all compound the risk, as does, crowding, jostling, the groups at risk, etc. etc. = sfarp automatic under-platform trace heating. Discuss.

I suspect that the resolution that the IP would wish for would be properly covered by a substantial hike in ticket prices, and probably a tax rise too.

But then again I guess he, like most of the rest of us, would find that an unwelcome imposition.

Just goes to show, you can't have your cake and eat it!

Ian,

Interesting thought. I must remember that when I review designers health and safety considerations!

'Reason for less safe design option - customers won't welcome a price rise.'

I ahd 45 and a half years railway service and managed some one hindred stations botj manned and unmanned over quite a long time so can speak both with experience and some authority on this annual topic. Provided the weather forecast indicates a possibility of freezing conditions arrangements are mandated that treatment is undertaken before five in the morning by staff on the station or mobile teams specifically trained in the task. There is no excuse for the platform being left with no treatment. This is not a new problem it has happened almost every year since Adam was a boy, smacks of poor management to me, there was a weather forcast last night.

Simon alias SP900308

Thanks for the prompt about winter tyres v gritting. I intended to add some comment about this earlier, but was busy with work. Also, as my earlier response was already quite long, I didn't want to add more and unduly challenge the attention spans of some forum users!

The trouble with the UK is that we don't have a climate. We have weather with changeable conditions during every season, including winter with notably fluctuating temperatures and differing amounts and durations of ice and snow in different parts of the UK. Though I'm no meteorologist it seems that the prolonged freezes which beset most of the UK during the past two winters were exceptional rather than the norm for most areas.

Countries like Norway (which I visit almost every winter) have permanent ice and snow throughout their winter months because temperatures remain below freezing point. On some days and in some locations or areas, if there's sufficient sunshine, air temperatures can rise above freezing and can cause transient melting of exposed surfaces of snow and ice. Gritting of roads in such countries is impracticable for various reasons. In some or most of these countries vehicles are required by law to be fitted with winter tyres between set dates.

From what I've seen in Norway and Finland, winter tyres look like ordinary tyres but are apparently made of significantly softer rubber which gives reasonable grip/traction on icy or snow covered roads. The grip is evidently very effective because Norwegians in winter usually drive at speeds and accelerate and brake in the same manner as we usually do on UK roads. However, as winter tyres wear out quickly on ordinary road surfaces, this explains why they are fine for countries with real winters, but not the UK where ice and snow rarely lasts for long on roads in most or all areas. Also I don't know the prices of winter tyres in Norway (must ask next time) but as they seem pretty expensive here in the UK, this is also a signficant factor for us.

However, a good colleague of mine recently mentioned that spray-on coatings for tyres are now available in the UK. To echo his query, if any forum users have tried such coatings, did they seem to be effective?

My inexpert guess is that such a coating somehow mimics the relatively soft outer surface of a winter tyre to give a better grip on ice and hard snow, but won't last very long especially if tyres with it are driven over ordinary roads devoid of ice or snow. If it's reasonably effective, this type of product should become better known and more widely used, especially as cash-strapped local highway authorities have increasingly less resources to grit and re-grit some of the roads which they have usually done in the past.

Also, to avoid any misunderstanding I've no involvement with overshoe ice grips - they just seem to be a simple and sensible measure to make walking both safer and easier on icy or hard snow covered surfaces.

borisgiles - Thanks for sharing your experience of winter tyres. As an owner of an oldish Toyota I can imagine your feeling of great delight (some might call it smugness) in driving past the posh but undeniably stuck vehicle you mention. Did you have winter tyres fitted to your car's wheels to temporarily replace the usual tryes or did you get an additional set of wheels fitted with winter tyres? The latter would allow you to swap the wheels yourself as and when appropriate. However, for many car owners in the UK, there is probably the snag that they have little or no idea about how to change their wheels themselves, including how to jack up their cars.

Another thought: Would it be a good idea for vehicles fitted with winter tyres (or with specially sprayed ordinary tyres if they're proven to be effective) to have some sort of detachable marker front and back (like L plates) to indicate to other drivers that they have such tyres? Without some sort of indication drivers behind might assume that they can drive as easily as the (unknown to them) winter-tyred vehicles and thus unwittingly put themselves, their vehicles and other road users at risk.

Back to overshoe ice grippers - It might be worthwhile for some organisations to buy bulk collections at suitably discounted prices in order to sell them to employees at either reduced cost or make some profit. Does anyone know of employers and other organisations which have done this? Even if we're not due for another prolonged freeze this winter in the UK, icy conditions are foreseeable sooner or later if they haven't already occurred in some areas. They certainly occurred in Simon/SP's local station area this morning. Also, how about forum users getting them as Xmas presents or early presents for friends and relatives? They're not glamorous items but would surely show how much you care for the safety and wellbeing of your friends and family!

The original post was about the station platform not being treated, nothing to do with car tyres or snow boots or even skies. The fact that in the past around August we used to get ready for the winter. Snow ploughs were readied and fully serviced, point heaters were checked and tested and salt stock was sent to all manned stations and strategic locations to cover unmanned stations ready for any bad weather that was likely to come our way. The fact that nothing was done at the station in question is simple down to lack of proper mangerial attention. There is no excuse for this as in Britain we have had bad weather for many a year and the foreseability is clearly known about, no excuses simply bad management.

Clairel I fully understood the point and responded to it, the thing about going off into other issues is qquite valid but it often clouds the issue as well. The points I added about the points etc were related to how railway management used to deal with bad weather, something that has not been done here so how do you expect the rest to be adequately done,. The point I was making is the current railway management seems to be very short sighted and seem to be unprepared for winter. The main thrust of the original post was the poor way that the icy weather was managed at the station concerned and was not asking a question but moaning about the lack of foresight shown by the train operating company concerned.

Coming from a railway background this is my take on the situation. The platforms should be clear from ice/snow, SFAIRP, station staff are responsible for ensuring salt or whatever is applied where and when needed. A good measure of salt will normally last more than a day and provide less work the following day. Applying salt in advance does make the task easier I believe.

Sometimes it may only be practical to clear or treat a percentage of the platform, but at least it should be safe for those boarding the train. A whole platform (about 400ft) takes some manpower which may not be readily available. If the situation was so bad then shutting the station would be an option. However, punters would no be furious if they could not access the station.

Icy platforms are a perpetual problem but there should still be a maintenance to deal with the problem. It is not acceptable to leave platforms untreated as it poses a real danger of people slipping off the platform onto the rails and in front of a train.