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redken  
#1 Posted : 30 November 2011 16:23:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
redken

If as the reuslt of Loftstedt the self employed were offered a choice to be in or out of H&S legilslation, what arguemnts would you put forward to a self employed friend to stay in?
Safety Smurf  
#2 Posted : 30 November 2011 16:30:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

redken wrote:
If as the reuslt of Loftstedt the self employed were offered a choice to be in or out of H&S legilslation, what arguemnts would you put forward to a self employed friend to stay in?


Depends on you business. If it involves working on clients sites then you will probably have to continue as usual anyway in order to secure the business.

If you're a cabinet maker working from your back garden workshop your product still needs to be safe for other to use even if some of the other legislation can be relaxed.
JohnW  
#3 Posted : 30 November 2011 16:39:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

I agree with Smurfy.

Also Joe the Joiner needs to ensure his workshop doesn't present a significant fire risk to his neighbours - sparks, sawdust and flammable varnish need controls.....
David Bannister  
#4 Posted : 30 November 2011 16:56:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Sole trader or self-employed solicitors, management consultants, PR, authors all spring immediately to mind as creating very little H&S risk, along perhaps with H&S consultants. I would not want to construct much of an argument for them. Of course each will need to be mindful of client site risks but those fall to the site operator to control.

The same could be said for the home based online trader (if we exclude product safety issues).

I can understand the argument for telling the self-employed joiner to guard a cross-cut saw so that his kids keep their digits and the gardener to keep the paraquat locked away. Likewise the jobbing plumber needs to keep the blowtorch under control when on his customers site, although that's more about liability than H&S.
Irwin43241  
#5 Posted : 01 December 2011 08:33:06(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

I would strongly advise writing to the prime minister to ask him for clarification exactly what it means in legal terms being exempt from health and safety legislation. This would help when in the dock having to defend themselves.
johnmurray  
#6 Posted : 01 December 2011 14:39:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

I well remember the self employed steel erector who burnt down a newly built abattoir, by flame cutting steel over polystyrene insulation.
Insurance only to one million.......
Now, if he had followed procedure for hot work on the site.......but that would have meant reading the paperwork....
johnmurray  
#7 Posted : 01 December 2011 14:41:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Irwin43241 wrote:
I would strongly advise writing to the prime minister to ask him for clarification exactly what it means in legal terms being exempt from health and safety legislation. This would help when in the dock having to defend themselves.


Not much.
Unless he offers them exemption in law from everything.
firesafety101  
#8 Posted : 01 December 2011 16:22:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

stuff4blokes wrote:
Sole trader or self-employed solicitors, management consultants, PR, authors all spring immediately to mind as creating very little H&S risk, along perhaps with H&S consultants. I would not want to construct much of an argument for them. Of course each will need to be mindful of client site risks but those fall to the site operator to control.

The same could be said for the home based online trader (if we exclude product safety issues).

I can understand the argument for telling the self-employed joiner to guard a cross-cut saw so that his kids keep their digits and the gardener to keep the paraquat locked away. Likewise the jobbing plumber needs to keep the blowtorch under control when on his customers site, although that's more about liability than H&S.


Plumber + blowtorch = risk assessment. Not rocket science!
gramsay  
#9 Posted : 01 December 2011 23:12:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
gramsay

(apologies if I've missed this specific question being answered elsewhere, I've read through a lot of the posts so far, great discussion)

I'm actually struggling to think of a specific concrete example of something self-employed people currently have to do that they might not in future.

One guy or girl working on their own doesn't need a written policy or anything like that, and (assuming their work doesn't pose a potential risk to others) what exactly do we think they're doing at the moment?

Plumbers, etc, in no way pose zero potential risk to others, so I'm assuming we're talking about home-based bookeepers, consultants, etc. While some of the keener ones may indeed have drawn up a risk assessment as an alternative to Solitaire when avoiding real work, what really makes them do this at the moment? If the only person at risk of harm is themselves, have there been cases of people being denied (eg) insurance for not properly assessing these risks? And are we really only dealing with a situation where, for example, we mean it's ok for a self-employed person to proceed with a task without wearing the PPE which a reasonable employer would require their staff to use?

This is a genuine question, by the way - I'm probably missing the point and couldn't quite see where the real problem lies.
Big Nick  
#10 Posted : 02 December 2011 15:31:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Big Nick

I recently had a new TV aerial fitted on my house by a local self employed tradesman. The man was in his fiftys and told me that he had been doing the job for twenty years.

He was quite talkative and I asked him about H&S concerning his ladders, working at height, etc...

He told me he never bothered with H&S because he doesn't employ anyone, carries out his risk assessments in his head when he looks at the job and because of his experience he knows how to use and position a ladder correctly.

Maybe this is the kind of answer we will be getting from all Self Employed tradesman in the future?
RayRapp  
#11 Posted : 03 December 2011 08:36:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

In my experience self-employed tradesmen only have written RAs, method statements, etc in order to provide them when asked by commercial clients. For those doing purely domestic work they would not normally have these documents. In other words, tradesmen are not completing these documents for their own safety, or even the safety of others, but solely for when they are requested. There is no requirement for self-employed workers to record their RA, but to make an assessment - presumably in one's head.
gramsay  
#12 Posted : 03 December 2011 10:51:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
gramsay

Given all that, what exactly would be changed by the proposal regarding self-employed people?
Stedman  
#13 Posted : 03 December 2011 10:59:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Stedman

I don’t get it. Our government spends thousands of pounds commissioning a report which proposes exempting self-employed whose work activities pose “no potential risk of harm to others” when there is perfectly good legislation such as The Employers' Health and Safety Policy Statements (Exception) Regulations 1975 or the 1999 Management Regs.

Presumably the man who fixes the TV aerials would not be exempt from the proposed concept as there is “potential risk of harm to others”. I also suspect that scope of reference is so narrow that there will be very few self-employed who would be except.
RayRapp  
#14 Posted : 03 December 2011 11:38:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

It is really a Red Herring. Even where self-employed are, or will be, exempt from h&s law, there is nothing to stop a client requesting RAs, method statements, etc, prior to allowing the tradesman to start work. So, if the tradesman does not have the h&s documents, he don't get the work - simples.
Stedman  
#15 Posted : 03 December 2011 12:43:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Stedman

I would love to use the quote here used by Mr Bumble (Charles Dickens) on badly drafted Law. See Oliver Twist, chapter 51

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