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Willis28616  
#1 Posted : 08 December 2011 16:44:06(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Willis28616

I am looking to gather any examples of good practice in terms of company first aider personnel using thier own car to transport an ill colleague to hospital (possibly home) where the emergency services are not required.
I appreciate every organisation may have a different approach i.e. location/environment, type of work organisation does, first aiders do not use own car/company car provided, own car can be used provided business insurance in place, organisation has an account with local taxi company, other staff member to drive own car/company car and first aider accompany ill colleague in case of difficulties on-route etc.
There may be examples of good practice concerning this issue that would be beneficial to know before I decide on my organisation's policy approach.
Thank you.
Betta Spenden  
#2 Posted : 08 December 2011 17:15:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Betta Spenden

I had a very similar issue in a previous job and I got around it by getting the MD to agree that senior managers handed over the keys to company vehicles for this sort of stuff. Obviously they moaned like heck but they were told. Quote “listen Popeye it ani't actually your car so hand it over”, unquote. We made sure the driver was insured and that the car was back in time for cease work, so the manager could go home. We also logged the miles so the manager did not pay for the fuel and the times so that we could nail the driver if he/she was caught speeding. We had a “no blame policy.” But we still liked to know who WE were not blaming and then let the Rozzers do em for it.

Joking apart, it took some implementing at first, but it sorted out any questions regarding vehicle serviceability, insurance, MoTs and stopped moans about wear and tear on private cars etc. It also allowed us to selected the right person to be a taxi driver. So the highly paid fitters were being paid to crack on and do their jobs instead of being orf doing niff-naff jobs. Jobs that the erks on less pay could do. Oops did I say that out loud.
Bob Shillabeer  
#3 Posted : 08 December 2011 18:25:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

I think I read this one right, you are concerned about first aiders using thier car to transport someone to hospital or home when they are unwell, am I reading this right? If so what is the problem, you simply need to check the person who is driving has suitable insurance cover for using the vehicle for business purposes. As for ensuring the vehicles was back in time for the 'owner' to drive home is it not a case of hard luck if the vehicle is a bit late getting back and if it is so late then try and get some other vehicle for them, the problem will not last more than a few hours anyway.
bob youel  
#4 Posted : 09 December 2011 07:38:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

If people are using their own cars for such purposes they should also be paid appropriate expenses for their efforts
cal08  
#5 Posted : 09 December 2011 09:02:51(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
cal08

Just a quick thought, the first aider cannot give first aid whilst driving if the IP becomes unwell on the journey. Would be advisable to have a nominated driver to drive the IP and first aider to the hospital or home as necessary.
davidjohn#1  
#6 Posted : 09 December 2011 09:15:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
davidjohn#1

You stated that you have an account with a local taxi firm. If your staff/first aiders have access to a company vehicle thats fully insured then great, but if not then why not send the IP home or to the hospital in a taxi.
England37867  
#7 Posted : 09 December 2011 10:53:19(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
England37867

We had to stop use the of own vehicles to transport people to hospital due to insurance reasons i.e we weren't covered. However we have 2 pool cars, an engineering van and some company cars that we say should be used. If none of those are available then we have an account set up with a local taxi company.
jfw  
#8 Posted : 09 December 2011 13:45:38(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jfw


Our business insurance used to give cover for use of own car, as part of our fleet insurance.

However the insurer has now withdrawn this on the grounds that we no longer have a fleet. They do not consider 1 car which is the MD's to be a fleet !

What they have given us is cover for "emergency use of own car upto 100 miles per year".

This is to cover for this type of situation.

It is worth checking if you have this as part of your current policy or getting it added.

When we asked if we need to keep records of car usage under this part of the policy, they told us their was no requirement, so not sure how they can prove if we were ever to exceed the 100 mile limit.

Obviously you still have all the other problems associated with own car use such as licenses, MOT's, being roadworthy, serviced in line with manufacturers guidelines etc.

Brett Day SP  
#9 Posted : 12 December 2011 15:19:39(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Brett Day SP


This is a reply to a similar question with a few points to consider:

Have had this raised a few times on FA@W courses - answer has always come back no legal requirement, the general concensus was that if it was an injury that required a check at A&E the prudent options were:

Call for an ambulance - Normally severe cuts (even if bleeding is controlled due to risk of shock), breaks, sprains (as first aiders have been known to miss a break as a sprain) this would also include problems wih limb mobility (an ambulance has more space to rest 'stuck' limbs), chest pains, problems with breathing - talking from personal experience trying to do resus in the back of a car is an absolute pig of a job, if the casualty has lost conciousness (even if they regain it get the ambulance out just in case)

Car with first aider - for minor injuries only, thing to be aware of most car policies only cover social, domestic and pleasure and commuting to and from work. Insurance companies being what they are and looking to not pay up will tend to hit the driver under 1 of 2 clauses - transporting a colleague to hospital is classes as in connection with work i.e. using the vehicle for work and or using the vehicle as a private ambulance. Many insurers I've spoken to have said verbally that it would be ok but with the cases I've dealt with it's amazing how quickly they change thier minds - would not trust the verbal word of an insurance company - always get it in writing before hand or use a taxi.

I know I sound pessamistic about insurers but have had a fair chunk of experience with this scenario and whilst the person at the call centre will give a verbal ok, I've come across too many cases where after the fact the insurers have changed thier mind and backed away from it all.
Graham Bullough  
#10 Posted : 12 December 2011 17:03:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

As an expansion of this topic it's pertinent to mention that school employees sometimes use their cars to convey other employees or pupils to hospital after being treated and/or assessed by a first aider that they've got injuries or medical conditions whch are non-urgent. Also, in some cases when parents go to schools after being told that their children have been injured or shown signs of a non-urgent medical condition, employees might also convey parents in cases where the parents do not have cars. If there's any doubt about the degree of injury or medical condition, schools should summon an ambulance.

The above system seems to work for my employer's schools for which the nearest hospital with an accident & emergency dept is between 10 and 20 minutes drive away, depending on traffic conditions. However, it may not be appropriate for other schools.

As for most private motor insurance policies, my understanding (rightly or wrongly) is that most insurers have no problem with adding cover for "Use by the Policyholder in person in connection with the Policyholder's business and/or that of the Policyholder's employer", and often for no extra premium. However, if there's any chance that employees might be asked to do any business driving, even on an occasional basis such as conveying a colleague or anyone else to hospital, it's important for them to ask their insurers about this and ensure that the above quoted phrase (or similar) is included under "Limitations as to use" on their certificate of motor insurance.
Zimmy  
#11 Posted : 12 December 2011 19:36:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

Seems to me that it may be a case of let a paramedic make an assessment. Unless a small cut etc then, and if no blood is going to drip onto the seats, I guess all is well. But, and a big BUT here, most first aid folks are just that. A bad call with a broken arm could lead to internal bleeds etc and then all hell would, and should, be let loose.
Tigers  
#12 Posted : 13 December 2011 08:34:46(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Tigers

We used the Managers fleet of cars with a first aider for this, until a patient vomited in the car then this was withdrawn and altered to using a taxi with a first aider. Who then called the taxi firm to make return journey when they were ready.
mootoppers  
#13 Posted : 13 December 2011 13:20:12(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mootoppers

We changed insurers to one which allows staff to use their own car to transport pupils/employees to hospital. We obviously have some decent guidelines as to when this would be considered appropriate - no life threatening, no significant bleeding etc.
Graham Bullough  
#14 Posted : 13 December 2011 17:38:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

At the risk of stating the obvious, there are finite numbers of ambulances and paramedics. Therefore, when there are competing demands for them, presumably their controllers try to direct them to higher priority cases. If this is so, then it's foreseeable that during times of competing demand, persons classed as being of lower priority may have to wait a considerable time. Thus, for appropriate non-urgent cases, taking employees (or pupils) to hospital by car may enable them to get there notably quicker than by ambulance. As A&E departments also deal with people on a needs priority basis, getting people with (relatively) low priority injuries or conditions to A&E sooner rather than later would tend to help them get in the queue sooner.

It's relevant to add that, according to a current internet news report, paramedics in some areas and at some times are delayed for considerably long periods at A&E before they can hand over their patients. If there are no A&E staff available to take over, paramedics have no option but to wait with and monitor/treat their patients under 'continuity of care'. Such circumstances further limit the ability of paramedics to respond to demand, and are no doubt highly frustrating to them.
jfw  
#15 Posted : 13 December 2011 21:35:34(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jfw

tigers wrote:


We used the Managers fleet of cars with a first aider for this, until a patient vomited in the car then this was withdrawn and altered to using a taxi with a first aider.



I specify in our First Aid policy that the First Aider and patient sit in the back seats of the vehicle and a third person drives to A&E.

This is because the First Aid Risk Assessment has identified that if the injured or unwell persons condition deteriorates on route, (vomit, pass out etc) they can be treated / looked after by the First Aider in the back seats with minimal distraction to the driver.

Where as if they were in the front passenger seat with the First Aider driving, it’s much more difficult to deal with and there’s the potential for causing a road accident through distraction.

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