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davidjohn#1  
#1 Posted : 09 December 2011 09:29:46(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
davidjohn#1

I have just been informed that there is no hot water in our toilets due to a possible boiler breakdown. An engineer has been called out but this is the second time in recent months and I cant be sure how long this time its going to be without hot water. I am concerned as I know under the welfare regs that toilets must have cold and hot running water, Obvuiosly there is a genuine reason for no hot water but am concerned that for the short duration I'm in breach of my legal requirements.
teh_boy  
#2 Posted : 09 December 2011 09:36:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

davidjohn#1 wrote:
I have just been informed that there is no hot water in our toilets .
Sorry - as it's Friday - You flush your toilets with hot water! Posh or what! As for a serious answer - you need to ensure suitable welfare, this will depend on a range of factors. Can you in the short run. Provide alcohol gel (not perfect but better than nothing) use another facility for hand washing Provide a means of heating water, e.g. boiler / kettle? For example - lack of hot water in a hospital = really bad lack of hot water in office toilets - I am sure people will survive a day lack of hot water in engineering toilers - Ensure everyone wears gloves, provide separate facilities for cleaning. Washing hands in cold water and soap is OK for most stuff temporarily I am sure....
Clairel  
#3 Posted : 09 December 2011 10:15:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Interesting that you're worried about breaching Regulations but not about hygiene. In answer to your question as long as you are trying to do something to get it fixed then breaching the Regs isn't really an issue. This is the real world afterall. IMO as long as you have soap and cold running water you should be ok unless you're in a particuarly hazardous industry.
davidjohn#1  
#4 Posted : 09 December 2011 10:41:44(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
davidjohn#1

quote=Clairel]Interesting that you're worried about breaching Regulations but not about hygiene. In answer to your question as long as you are trying to do something to get it fixed then breaching the Regs isn't really an issue. This is the real world afterall. IMO as long as you have soap and cold running water you should be ok unless you're in a particularly hazardous industry.
Your assumption that I'm more interested in breaching the regs, rather than the hygiene is misunderstood as that was my primary concern, I was however not sure what must be available to customers and staff if this cant be fixed today and is likely to be prolonged. There is cold water and soap/hand sanitizer available but knowing customers some smart folks will complain if it is prolonged.
firesafety101  
#5 Posted : 09 December 2011 11:32:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Do not provide a boiler or kettle for handwashing - obvious it could lead to scalding. Regs require hot/cold or warm water for handwashing.
Canopener  
#6 Posted : 09 December 2011 12:27:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

As Claire has said, if this is a ‘transient’ occurrence that you are seeking to remedy as soon as possible then I hardly think that you are likely to have the HSE beating a path to your door due to ‘a breach of your legal requirements’. Depending on your sector, I would have thought that both they and I suspect you, have bigger fish to fry! The key to these sorts of situations is communication. Let your staff know what has gone wrong, what you are doing to put it right, how long you expect this to last and what alternatives, if any, there are. I would have thought that most staff will understand.
Graham Bullough  
#7 Posted : 09 December 2011 13:07:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Some good responses already. Canopener's suggestion about keeping people informed will help to keep the number of whinges by alleged "smart folk" to a minimum. A note displayed in the washroom/s involved might suffice as an initial method. If the hot water supply is going to be off for a while, an e-mail from a manager might be appropriate as a supplement. Over the years I've encountered a number of situations where working conditions and facilities have been unexpectedly affected by things like boiler breakdowns, major fires, etc. Most employees readily understand such situations and appreciate that arrangements are being made to tackle them. However, sometimes there are employees or employee reps who do not, and also complain to people like myself in OS&H, apparently thinking that we have magic wands. I've been very tempted sometimes to tell such people to make an urgent appointment on their own behalf with a taxidermist. However, I didn't because such people probably have little sense of humour and might cause further problems by complaining about me. Also, as the English language is being increasingly dumbed down nowadays, some people probably don't know what a taxidermist is!
Canopener  
#8 Posted : 09 December 2011 13:24:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Graham has picked up on something that was very much on my mind when I wrote my last post. We are not or intended to be miracle workers, nor do we have, should seek or be expected to have a magic wand. Part of our jobs is to both have and to convince others of the need for a sense of proportionality. In the grand scheme, the absence of hot water for a short period of time is unlikely to either kill anyone or cause them any significant harm. It might well be technically in breach, but considering the circumstances I can't see either an HSE/LA inspector taking this any further. Inform, communicate, get it fixed as soon as you can.
Zyggy  
#9 Posted : 09 December 2011 13:31:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zyggy

Graham is not being entirely honest I am afraid! He does actually have a pink "magic wand" which emits a delightful "tinkle" when you swoosh it (takes some practice, but easily worth 1 CPD point). In addition, I have just noticed his "Super Forum User" status, so am not sure if congratulations are in order or a P45...:-) ! Zyggy
Safety Smurf  
#10 Posted : 09 December 2011 13:34:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

zyggy wrote:
Graham is not being entirely honest I am afraid! He does actually have a pink "magic wand" which emits a delightful "tinkle" when you swoosh it (takes some practice, but easily worth 1 CPD point). In addition, I have just noticed his "Super Forum User" status, so am not sure if congratulations are in order or a P45...:-) ! Zyggy
Zyggy, Did you read that back to yourself before you pressed 'post'?
kdrum  
#11 Posted : 09 December 2011 13:40:34(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
kdrum

Zyggy good job it's a friday or the PC brigade would question your 'emits a delightful tinkle when you swoosh it' Never knew I could claim CPD point for that ;-)
Zyggy  
#12 Posted : 09 December 2011 13:41:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zyggy

Safety Smurf....no but see what you mean!! To clarify...it's a toy plastic wand that we sometimes use in presentations!!
Clairel  
#13 Posted : 09 December 2011 13:42:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Well you lot can keep your pink tinkling wands to yourself, thank you very much!!! ;-)
bod212  
#14 Posted : 09 December 2011 14:07:14(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bod212

And to think this thread started on the subject of water temperature before getting to pink wands that tinkle. Tell me there's a link here.
Mr.Flibble  
#15 Posted : 09 December 2011 14:15:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Mr.Flibble

Have just checked job description for my role of 'Health, Safety, Facilities and everything else that no one else wants to do Manager' and it does clearly stated in item 15: Must be able to work miracles and produce items from thin air. Must read the small print next time! P.S. - Our boiler, erm had an electrical fault shall we say, and was off for 2 days. No one even noticed and I have union members aplenty!
Graham Bullough  
#16 Posted : 09 December 2011 16:10:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Mr Flibble mentions union members among others not noticing, or perhaps just not complaining about the effects of a boiler faulty for 2 days. This perhaps provides an illustration that, contrary to some people's impressions, union members and their representatives are not necessarily out to score points and co-operate as little as possible with managers and employers. As with people in general, some union reps are pragmatic and sensible about situations and, er, some are not. Sometimes sensible union reps tell the non-sensible ones to get a grip on reality, as I found for example some years ago shortly after one of my employer's secondary schools suddenly lost a third of its large building through fire. One rep was unhappy that several of his members were teaching in squash courts taken into use as improvised classrooms at the adjacent sports centre. The teachers themselves didn't seem unhappy with this arrangement, and a rep from another teaching union told the unhappy one that he was going way over the top about an understandable temporary arrangement. The unhappy rep promptly shut up. I never even got the chance to find out if he knew the meaning of "taxidermist"!
Safety Smurf  
#17 Posted : 09 December 2011 16:16:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

If the hot water takes a while to get through there's a strong possiblity that nobody has noticed because all they tend to do is rinse their hands under the tap for a few seconds.
chris.packham  
#18 Posted : 09 December 2011 17:31:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

From a hygiene viewpoint I would not worry too much about no hot water. I know of no evidence that shows that washing in cold water is unhygienic. The hot water is really there for comfort. In any event hot and cold water should be mixed to provide lukewarm water to wash in. Chris
Graham Bullough  
#19 Posted : 14 December 2011 13:10:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

I forgot to add as an aside to my mention of 'taxidermist' at #16 above that during my HSE days I inspected a large independent boarding school in a fairly remote rural part of Scotland. During the visit I was intrigued to be shown a large refrigerator containing squirrels and other dead furry or feathered creatures. They were being stored until members of the school's active taxidermy society could use their skills to permanently preserve them. I think I was told the colloquial name for the society but have since forgotten it and had better not bring this forum into disrepute by opening speculating on what it might have been! Also, I think I was intrigued as to how the society acquired its creatures. If the school had a cadet force and/or a rifle shooting club, perhaps their members were able to help with this aspect! However, I guess that most candidates for stuffing (sorry, I meant preserving) were found as road kill victims or donated by local farmers and gamekeepers.
Graham Bullough  
#20 Posted : 20 December 2011 16:15:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Since posting my response above with info about the school taxidermy society I've remembered from my early years with HSE an anecdote from a colleague regarding himself and another colleague, a trainee. The gist of it was that both were travelling in a car, perhaps on HSE business, in a rural part of Scotland when the trainee either braked suddenly and stopped the car or asked our mutual colleague if driving to do so. He then got out and ran back to pick up a dead squirrel (if so, probably a red one) and pop it in a handy plastic bag. The ensuing conversation reportedly went along the following lines: colleague "what are you going to do with that?" trainee's response: "Stuff it!" Apparently the trainee had been in a taxidermy club while a pupil at an independent boarding school and knew that squirrels, especially red ones, were desirable creatures for taxidermy. As he went to a different school from the one I inspected, does anyone happen to know if taxidermy clubs tend to be popular at independent schools, and also if any exist at LEA/state schools? My apologies to forum users about the fact that the above has negligible or no connection with the original topic, but at least it contains some humour - and also there might be a tenuous link to OS&H in relation to taxidermy clubs at schools. Nearly forgot: The trainee later decided to leave HSE and train as a medical doctor. Perhaps he thought that if he wasn't going to pursue a career to try to prevent occupational injury and ill-health, he could at least help patients who had suffered various forms of ill-health or injury, possibly including ones with an occupational cause!
Andrew W Walker  
#21 Posted : 20 December 2011 16:25:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Andrew W Walker

Graham Have you ever thought of writing a book? Or ask IOSH to give you your own space for "tales from the coal face". Love the stories. Andy
chris.packham  
#22 Posted : 20 December 2011 16:35:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Should we start a collection of anecdotes from the experiences of health and safety practitioners. I could add a few. Perhaps eventually IOSH could publish these as a book!
chris.packham  
#23 Posted : 20 December 2011 16:50:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Should we start a collection of anecdotes from the experiences of health and safety practitioners. I could add a few. Perhaps eventually IOSH could publish these as a book!
NickH  
#24 Posted : 20 December 2011 16:53:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
NickH

I too look forward to Graham's posts - they often brighten an otherwise normnally dull day.
JohnV  
#25 Posted : 20 December 2011 17:12:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
JohnV

Yes OK, provided people don't perceive a link between safety practitioners and an obsession with taxidermy......our reputation will really go down the pan then... :)
HSSnail  
#26 Posted : 20 December 2011 17:20:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Well plenty of people already tell me to get stuffed! Sorry mods I know its not Friday but could not resist. Have a good Christmas and keep safe everyone.
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