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Short duration work at height on a flat roof
Rank: New forum user
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Task is to conduct an inspection on a flat roof that has no edge protection (e.g.. 1960's school building). My advice was that one of the following safe systems of work would be needed, a) use a cherrypicker, or b) set up a work positioning system using a harness and lanyard that would keep the worker at least 2M from any position where a fall was possible, or c) set up a demarcation system using a physical barrier positioned at least 2M from any position where a fall was possible.
My colleagues think I'm applying controls that are beyond those used by other roofing contractors. Does anyone have a view? Am I being too cautious? (a sanity check would be useful!) Does anyone have any other ideas? Grateful for any comments.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Depends upon the size of the roof to be inspected, material of construction ( i,e is it fragile etc), height of the roof, is it flat or sloping, what type of inspection and what do you constitute as short duration?
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Rank: Super forum user
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What does a short duration actually mean here? If it is to simple check something on the roof that takes only a few minutes then edge protection is a bit OTT. As Jay has stated you need to check what type of roof it is and ensure the person doing the work fully understands about working near the edge and what care is needed when on the roof. Would the work to be undertaken cause the person on the roof to be so concerned with the task or tasks that he could stray to close to the edge? The questions could continue to be put, but what is the risk of falling given that the person would be fully briefed?
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Rank: New forum user
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Just to clarify .... assume roof is flat and single storey, roof construction is not fragile, inspection is visual (i.e. to determine scope of any repair or refurbishment needed) and duration is in the region of 15 minutes to 1 hour. The surveyor is going to be on the roof with the client's representative in most cases. The surveyor understands the risk and that he needs to stay at least 2M away from a position where a fall could occur. However, the HSE guidance infers that short duration work of this type still requires robust control, and that even a painted line or bunting to mark out the safe working zone would not provide sufficient protection..... the wording suggests some form of physical barrier would be required ...... hence my suggestion to use a demarcation system (not full edge protection).
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Rank: Super forum user
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Tuck, thanks for clarification. There is no need for any protection systems at all. Make sure that all persons doing the inspection are briefed that they must not go within two meters of the edge and specify a need for each person to watch that the other conforms to that instruction. As they will only be there for a very short time period and not undertaking anything other than a visual inspection that will be enough and will fall well within the reasonably practicable criteria.
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Rank: Forum user
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The main consideration is ensuring a safe place of work for your employee, the Act 2.1 The overriding consideration here is working at height and avoiding it, if you don’t have to step on to the roof ie visual a mewp / cherrypicker providing the terrain in suitable I am not sure if you intend to venture on to the roof or merely view visually, i wil assume to view visually The time period is immaterial case law Ferguson V Dawson & Parteners Ltd (10-15min is an appreciable) consider the principle. you seam to have everything in place. your controls are good. What other contractors do again is immaterial it is a case by case basis; it is not them that will have to explain to criminal barrister why you failed to use such a system “ Oh everyone thought i was going over the top as compared to other contractors” in the cold light of day after the accident it will then seam glaringly obvious; why did i not use the controls. http://www.hse.gov.uk/pr...asp?SF=CN&SV=4264266So far as is reasonable practicable is base on time cost and effort principle What you are proposing by way of safety control is what i would expect of a SSOW for this type of work. Remember Sect 2 of the act is a general duty . You may find this website useful http://rwww.accessindustryforum.org.uk/wahsa.htmP
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Rank: Super forum user
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Tuck26657 wrote:Does anyone have any other ideas? Grateful for any comments. Does the roof have any sky lights? I've been on many a 60's school roof and most tend to have them somewhere or other.
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Rank: Super forum user
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(c) is acceptable taking into account the variables highlighted by others on the proviso that a 2 metre exclusion zone from the edge is identified with a physical barrier of some description.
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Rank: Super forum user
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RayRapp wrote:(c) is acceptable taking into account the variables highlighted by others on the proviso that a 2 metre exclusion zone from the edge is identified with a physical barrier of some description. Agree with this, given that the task could be up to 1 hour. Reading between the lines with HSE's work at height toolkit, the cut off for "short duration" appears to be 30 minutes. If the OP's task was a maximum 15-30 minutes then I'd tend to agree with Bob's thoughts as a reasonably practicable solution (a plan of the roof would also be useful to highlight where they will walking etc. etc.). Given it could be up to an hour I'd say some kind of physical control would be appropriate. The problem is HSE guidance documents seem to demand a lot, and this won't always be appropriate for a very short duration low intensity task (part of the problem is the more detailed guidance documents are biased to the construction industry).
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Rank: Super forum user
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The answer depends on the means of access available to you. If there is an access hatch then it will be relatively simple to set up a man-safe fixed lanyard system to prevent access near edges. Other than that, there is little lee-way in HSE published guidance (HSG33 et al) and a ladder tower and temp.edge protection would be the order of the day -irrespective of what we may all think is OTT! Otherwise use of a MEWP, survey from higher vantage point, or make use of a camera on an R.C. helicopter. (I read recently of a successful bridge survey undertaken using an R.C. helicopter).
HSE's discussion of 'short-duration' relates more to working from a ladder, not with regard to any "sfarp" need for edge protection. A risk of fall from an edge is not a time-bound incident.
Best of luck in convincing others!
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Rank: Super forum user
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ron hunter wrote:The answer depends on the means of access available to you. If there is an access hatch then it will be relatively simple to set up a man-safe fixed lanyard system to prevent access near edges. Other than that, there is little lee-way in HSE published guidance (HSG33 et al) and a ladder tower and temp.edge protection would be the order of the day -irrespective of what we may all think is OTT! Otherwise use of a MEWP, survey from higher vantage point, or make use of a camera on an R.C. helicopter. (I read recently of a successful bridge survey undertaken using an R.C. helicopter).
HSE's discussion of 'short-duration' relates more to working from a ladder, not with regard to any "sfarp" need for edge protection. A risk of fall from an edge is not a time-bound incident.
Best of luck in convincing others! I'd say that there is more risk of falling from an edge if you are working on the roof for a longer period of time, longer exposure more steps you are taking on the roof would equate to greater likelihood of a person falling. Agreed that the guidance doesn't give any room for maneuver, and in general for a "project" on a roof it fits the bill fine, but for short and very short duration work it's often just not reasonably practicable imo. I'd suggest a running line system would be expensive to install, especially if there are no eye bolts etc. already in place. A series of weighted anchors? Or a full system set up drilling through to roof steels etc? Bearing in mind the system would need to cover all areas needed to access (up to 1 hour for a survey suggests a fairly large roof). No easy answer really.
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Rank: Forum user
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Surely, in the circumstances offered forth, the implementation of edge protection/barriers might well simply expose others - whomever fits/installs them - to more danger that we're looking to mitigate against with respect to the original task at hand?
My own personal 'AFARP' test for this would suggest that a thorough briefing of the safe system, 2 person working - don't stray to within 2 metres of the edge - coupled with a buddy system of monitoring would be fine. Whether that'd stand up in court after a mishap is another matter and we'd all only be guessing.
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Rank: Forum user
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wclark1238 wrote:Surely, in the circumstances offered forth, the implementation of edge protection/barriers might well simply expose others - whomever fits/installs them - to more danger that we're looking to mitigate against with respect to the original task at hand?
My own personal 'AFARP' test for this would suggest that a thorough briefing of the safe system, 2 person working - don't stray to within 2 metres of the edge - coupled with a buddy system of monitoring would be fine. Whether that'd stand up in court after a mishap is another matter and we'd all only be guessing. +1, but as stated the 'common sense' to H&S will only get tested in the courts....
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Short duration work at height on a flat roof
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