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HSSnail  
#1 Posted : 20 January 2012 17:06:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Which Piece of H&S Legislation Would You Review/Change? For me this has to be RIDDOR. The number of is it or isn’t post’s we get and the difference of opinions given this has to be one piece of legislation that need a full review. And I don’t just mean tweaking the 3 day to 7 day reporting requirement that’s being introduced.
Bob Shillabeer  
#2 Posted : 20 January 2012 17:18:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

Rather than amending the regs a better understanding by professionals would be better in understanding exxactly what they require.
A Kurdziel  
#3 Posted : 20 January 2012 17:23:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I dislike the fact that it is a legal requirement to carry out a risks assessment under Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations Reg 3, not because I am against risk assessments, I am not; they are very important, but because they are used as a stick to beat the profession with, in particular if someone is making a civil claim. The first question that they always ask is do you have a risk assessment for this activity even if the activity is walking along the corridor. This is not what risk assessment is about. So what I’d do is amend the regs so that you cannot bring a civil action, just because there is no risk assessment. There has to be evidence of actual harm caused by the lack of the risk assessment.
Bob Shillabeer  
#4 Posted : 20 January 2012 17:32:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

The lack of a risk assesment can never bring harm to anyone. It is the activity being carried out that creates the risk but that does not mean that harm actually arises. The purpose of a risk assessment is to identify the level of risk that arises from a particular activity and leads to the development of a method to minimise the risk becoming an accident. Risk assessment has been blown up into the demon of everything, but done in the proper manner and the right level of action identified it does make someone aware of it asnd they can then decide what preventive measures are needed to control that risk to an acceptable level. Risk assessment done correctly is a very very useful tool and should be required by law because to simply make it only a voluntary thing wouild mean it wont be done.
BuzzLightyear  
#5 Posted : 20 January 2012 18:31:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
BuzzLightyear

Me too regarding RIDDOR. In social care world they need to make it clearer when someone is taken from the scene to hospital - when it is reportable and when it isn't. I would also re-write all the Regulations and H&S at Work Act in plain modern English, trying to avoid all this cross referencing subclause section 2c malarkey. However, with a cash-slashed HSE this is probably not a priority. Wouldn't it be nice if Cameron and Grayling actually read this forum for mostly sensible informed ideas instead of following the Daily Fail.
John J  
#6 Posted : 20 January 2012 20:25:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
John J

Statute bar h&s regulations and provide guidance on riddor like OSHA do for their regs.
Bob Shillabeer  
#7 Posted : 20 January 2012 20:29:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

Law and Regulations are written in the way they are because they are law and meant for the legal people to interperate and make judgements upon them so the style will not change. Interpretation of those laws is quite easy to understand when you understand the legal jargon and how it applies. Most professional H&S people understand how to read it and if it was written in plain English it could be open to much more interpretation both right and wrong so in my view leave well alone.
Ron Hunter  
#8 Posted : 21 January 2012 00:16:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Deja Vu. I'm sure we had this very question some weeks ago. My answer then: Ditch the DSE Regs. I do hope the upcoming EU review will identify these as superfluous, and the requirement for provision of free eyecare an absolute nonsense.
bob youel  
#9 Posted : 21 January 2012 09:52:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

Leave the laws as they are as there is noting wrong with them especially so as most people have lost sight of why they were created in the first place and in many cases when I chat to people I find that they have not fully read any law nor trial run them since their exams so there is on many occasions a lack of real understanding I advise all that we all get up to speed and re read and re read the law etc along side reading legal judgements There are 6 elements in my view a; Competent people: In all my years I find that where common sense, logic and back to basics is followed by properly competent people around a table then the end result is very rarely disputed b; People trying to give an opinion and who think that they are competent: Enough said c; The legal professionals: Even if we had no specific H&S laws the legal professionals would still make money out of every situation and act as is current practice d; None professionals who are asking for things that are outside their competence area are but they hold the R7 role in their workplace: Enough said - noting that we all help where we can e; The press and politicians: Enough said Just my opinion
bwm  
#10 Posted : 22 January 2012 09:46:11(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bwm

ron hunter wrote:
Deja Vu. I'm sure we had this very question some weeks ago. My answer then: Ditch the DSE Regs. I do hope the upcoming EU review will identify these as superfluous, and the requirement for provision of free eyecare an absolute nonsense.
While I would agree that the DSE Regs are one of the least (properly) used regulations and the eye test wrong on many levels, they are far from superfluous. Upper limb disorders etc. etc. It's a big problem and being sat at a desk for 8 hours a day can create and/or exacerbate ULD's. I know - I'm in constant pain because of it! As previously mentioned, maybe a bit more understanding of the risks by industry is the key.
colinreeves  
#11 Posted : 23 January 2012 14:13:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
colinreeves

Pre HASWA 1974 safety legislation was prescriptive. HASWA changed the whole concept round to, what is now believed to be, a more reasonable approach that the employer is responsible for ensuring his activities are carried out in a safe manner. Regrettably, the EU has forgotten (or never bothered to learn) this and their recent directives have been moving back towards the prescriptive style - WAH being a prime example. Even more regrettably, the UK "government" has no powers to tell the EU that their Directives are not fit for purpose ....
johnmurray  
#12 Posted : 23 January 2012 15:20:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

The UK government, along with all other European governments, were in at the start of the directive designs. The EU is a convenient scapegoat used to get off the hook by member states.
Ron Hunter  
#13 Posted : 23 January 2012 16:19:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

bwm wrote:
While I would agree that the DSE Regs are one of the least (properly) used regulations and the eye test wrong on many levels, they are far from superfluous. Upper limb disorders etc. etc. It's a big problem and being sat at a desk for 8 hours a day can create and/or exacerbate ULD's. I know - I'm in constant pain because of it! As previously mentioned, maybe a bit more understanding of the risks by industry is the key.
My point is that important parts of DSE Regs are essentially covered by other areas of legislation, and the DSE Regs are essentially superfluous. I'm not for a minute suggesting the musculo-skeletal risks are trivial.
kdrum  
#14 Posted : 24 January 2012 09:27:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
kdrum

I would like to see a complete overhaul of RIDDOR not just a cosmetic change. There is another posting re RIDDOR which has around 40 replies, tho some posters have 2 posts, and it is about 19 to report the OP's scenario and 12 not to report. If we as practitioners cannot agree on the reporting criteria surely that indicates a few fundemental problems with interpretation. For the record I think the posts that concentrate on it being a work reklated activity or arising out of or in connection with conditions, work station, environment etc are correct and not reportable. Being at work does not automatically make it reportable. I aslo agree that DSE has become dated and many responsibilities are covered in other Regs
martin1  
#15 Posted : 24 January 2012 15:23:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
martin1

Agree on DSE. Perhaps it could be cut down and included as a requirement in the Wokrplace regs ref risk of Upper Limb Disorders? When I started in safety ( the salad days of 1990, children playing safely in the street, rabbits jumping free in flower filled fields, hopes of an interesting career not yet thrown against the rocks of middle age ) it was not uncommon to come across keyboards made without height adjustments, screens that were fixed and could not be swivelled and chairs with fours legs and not five little castors!!!! I think the DSE regs have helped improve office environments but are well due for a change. More focus on upper limb disorders which seems as much to do with posture, habits of users etc than equipment / workstation design. And yes - before any one shouts - I know that not all workstations are correctly designed and poor design contributes to ULD's but things have improved on this front me thinks. Also - down with CoSHH as I said on previous thread on this subject.
redken  
#16 Posted : 24 January 2012 15:54:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
redken

Martin1 wrote:
Also - down with CoSHH as I said on previous thread on this subject.
Why, then we would not have any regulation dealing with substances hazardous to health, one of the five particular points in section 2 of the HASAWA: "arrangements for ensuring, so far as is reasonably practicable, safety and absence of risks to health in connection with the use, handling, storage and transport of articles and substances;" Just drop the H from IOSH and HSE!
A Kurdziel  
#17 Posted : 24 January 2012 16:08:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Martin1 "Also - down with CoSHH as I said on previous thread on this subject." COSHH is not perfect but it is really important that this issue is covered in some way or other. A lot of H&S people dislike COSHH because it deals with “sciency stuff”; chemical and biological agents not the engineering issues they are used to BUT these things are a real hazard in the workplace and a major cause not just of short term injury but more importantly long term health issues. Looking at it realistically virtually every workplace has some sort of hazard that is dealt with under COSHH, from, cleaners used in office to, cement used on building sites to the risk of legionella from cooling towers.
jay  
#18 Posted : 24 January 2012 17:05:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

As Health and Safety professionals, it is incredible that we seem to be treating some of the "soft", but potentially long term health-effect issues such as DSE use /WRULDs etc as if it does not matter. The estimates of loss to the national economy due to work-related ILL-HEALTH runs into billions of pounds. http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/causdis/index.htm http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/cost.htm When the DSE Regs came into effect in 1993, yes, there was much to adjust/upgrade in context of furniture, equipment and also environment i.e lighting and so on. Now, as most organisations would have upgraded all that, DSE assessments, in my personal view are fairly straightforward, simple and do not take too much time. We use a 3 tiered structure that starts with a self assessment (with guidance/information) , a line manager sigh off and any issues identified are dealt with. It can be escalated to myself and finally occupational health professional. Do not forget that if you do not deal with specific health issues of individuals that have the potential to be made worse due to work and do not undertake reasonable adjustments, you could be looking towards significant claims. At the EU level, there is already a proposal to combine the Manual Handling & DSE directives into an Ergonomics one. Regarding COSHH, it need not be complex. Even now, thousands of employees have illnesses due to chemical exposure that is not adequately controlled. Even if we did only have HASAWA, we would still have the ACoPs specific to individual topics/subjects and in my view the outcomes similar! (It was in the Robens Report that the primary act would be supplemented by ACOPs)
jay  
#19 Posted : 24 January 2012 17:43:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

The EU does not have an individual WAH directive. It is GB that has implemented standalone WAH Regs that were previously part of the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations Regulation 13(1) to (4) and the now revoked Construction (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1996 , mainly regulations 6 to 8; but also aspects of regulation 2(1), in regulation 29(2),regulation 30(5) and (6)(a); Schedules 1 to 5; and the entry first mentioned in columns 1 and 2 of Schedule 7 If there is anyone who can recall that the WAH Regs wasone of the most extensive HSC consultations ever, and that there was a second consultation round whether the 2 metre rule should be maintained or not! Proposals for Work at Height Regulations-Consultation ended 2 April 2004:- http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.htm Work at Height Regulations and the Construction Industry 2-Metre Rule-Consultation ended 3 December 2004:- http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/letters/falls.htm
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