Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
paul.skyrme  
#1 Posted : 25 January 2012 21:44:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

I am NOT a fire safety expert, & I am NOT acting as the H&S (etc.) consultant for this client, I am on their site doing other works. They have an amenity "Portacabin" type building, toilets, wash rooms, catering, rest areas. This is heated, and acts as site security office out of hours. During working hours it has an authorised but uncontrolled stream of visitors. i.e. they are authorised to be on the site, but, their use of the facility is uncontrolled. It has the "official" entrance and exit in one "long" wall about 1/3 of the way along. There is a "Fire Exit" in the short wall furthest from the main entrance. I hope this makes sense. This unit is heated by electricity and the client feels that they need to do this to offer the workers respite from the weather, in which they are "normally" working. The bill for this heating is astronomical as the both doors are often left open for hours on end! I have been asked to look at the heating to see what can be done with reducing the cost. We have looked at alternatives, but, they have had abuse problems with some sorts of alternative heat sources. We are still working on this, however, the main problem is that of global warming, my client is just heating the word with their electricity! They have tried the signage route and this has had little effect. I have just, this minute thought about fitting auto closers to both doors, however, as one is a fire exit, toward by the way a diesel storage area, the other is away from this to the assembly area, could this be done as it could save their electricity bills, carbon emissions, gobal warming etc. in one fell swoop! Also tagged on to this can we legitimately prevent the fire exit being used as a normal exit by locking in some way? The propping thing I think can be covered by the layout of the unit. I am not sure as this is not my normal area of operation and, I don't feel competent to advise, I'm not looking for direct answers, necessarily, points to the relevant legislation clauses is fine, I'm not exactly sure where to go to be honest. Oh & don't say their FRA as it is doubtful they have one, LONG, LONG story, but, the site manager seems to think that they are exempt from almost all H,S&E laws! He only sees £'s & the Union shop stewards points of view. He seems to be able to ignore the EA, LA Trading Standards, LA Environmental Health, & HSE when it suits him!!! He also seems to get away with it. Shocked Smiley Face, IF I could do one!
Chris Cahill  
#2 Posted : 25 January 2012 22:13:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Chris Cahill

Paul The answer I am afraid is competent site management,without the site manger on board it seems a fruitless excercise. This should be controlled by suitable instruction disapline and robust management. not much help I know but sometimes straight talking is the answer or maybe its time to not get involved and to walk.
bob youel  
#3 Posted : 26 January 2012 07:43:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

Can you explain what you are doing and how you became involved as I would advise that this may be outside your competence area - stupid question but I must ask it;- does the company have their own H&S etc professional/s
bleve  
#4 Posted : 26 January 2012 08:28:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bleve

Fit the self closing hinges. The diesel tank is not a problem during evacuation due to elevated flash point.
Kate  
#5 Posted : 26 January 2012 08:44:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I don't understand what the issue with self-closing fire exits is - aren't they perfectly normal and accepted?
Safety Smurf  
#6 Posted : 26 January 2012 09:56:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

Judging from the amount of amenities provided I'm guessing this is more than one Portacbin. If so, how many are we talking about?
Murray18822  
#7 Posted : 26 January 2012 11:34:44(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Murray18822

You could fit self closing devices and or fit a locking device that can be easily opened in the event of an emergency - similar to the ones common on fire exits in shopping centres. If there are serious concerns about health and safety or fire safety on site then there is always the avenue of informing the HSE - they're not obliged to divulge the source of the complaint. It is though preferable to try and discuss such issues but in some instances (such as yours?) this may be fruitless.
pastapickles  
#8 Posted : 26 January 2012 13:13:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
pastapickles

You could try fitting the auto closer on the doors and alarm the fire door, so it opened a local alarm sounds and sounds until it is closed. Not expensive and the triggering of an alarm will encourage people not to open it. Also consider having the heating connected to sensors on the doors, so if they are open for more than 60 seconds the heating turns off until the doors have been closed. That way if the main door is propped open the heating will cut out until its closed. Or both of the above. Good Luck Richard
walker  
#9 Posted : 26 January 2012 13:53:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

paul.skyrme wrote:
I am NOT a fire safety expert, & I am NOT acting as the H&S (etc.) consultant for this client, I am on their site doing other works. They have an amenity "Portacabin" type building, toilets, wash rooms, catering, rest areas. This is heated, and acts as site security office out of hours. During working hours it has an authorised but uncontrolled stream of visitors. i.e. they are authorised to be on the site, but, their use of the facility is uncontrolled. It has the "official" entrance and exit in one "long" wall about 1/3 of the way along. There is a "Fire Exit" in the short wall furthest from the main entrance. I hope this makes sense. This unit is heated by electricity and the client feels that they need to do this to offer the workers respite from the weather, in which they are "normally" working. The bill for this heating is astronomical as the both doors are often left open for hours on end! I have been asked to look at the heating to see what can be done with reducing the cost. We have looked at alternatives, but, they have had abuse problems with some sorts of alternative heat sources. We are still working on this, however, the main problem is that of global warming, my client is just heating the word with their electricity! They have tried the signage route and this has had little effect. I have just, this minute thought about fitting auto closers to both doors, however, as one is a fire exit, toward by the way a diesel storage area, the other is away from this to the assembly area, could this be done as it could save their electricity bills, carbon emissions, gobal warming etc. in one fell swoop! Also tagged on to this can we legitimately prevent the fire exit being used as a normal exit by locking in some way? The propping thing I think can be covered by the layout of the unit. I am not sure as this is not my normal area of operation and, I don't feel competent to advise, I'm not looking for direct answers, necessarily, points to the relevant legislation clauses is fine, I'm not exactly sure where to go to be honest. Oh & don't say their FRA as it is doubtful they have one, LONG, LONG story, but, the site manager seems to think that they are exempt from almost all H,S&E laws! He only sees £'s & the Union shop stewards points of view. He seems to be able to ignore the EA, LA Trading Standards, LA Environmental Health, & HSE when it suits him!!! He also seems to get away with it. Shocked Smiley Face, IF I could do one!
walker  
#10 Posted : 26 January 2012 13:54:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

paul.skyrme wrote:
, but, the site manager seems to think that they are exempt from almost all H,S&E laws! He only sees £'s & the Union shop stewards points of view. He seems to be able to ignore the EA, LA Trading Standards, LA Environmental Health, & HSE when it suits him!!! He also seems to get away with it.
Well that is perfectly reasonable, after all this is exactly what the Prime Minister is telling people to do.
David Bannister  
#11 Posted : 26 January 2012 15:12:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Paul, I don't see any reason why a self-closer cannot be used on a fire exit, unless I have misunderstood the scenario. There is probably a good argument in favour of putting them on as this will restrict oxygen flow in to the fire area. As for locking a fire exit: No. Supermarkets use easily broken plastic ties to limit unauthorised access/thievery but I would not recommend their use in your situation. Why do you want to prevent the fire exit from being used? If there is a genuine need to stop routine use then it will help to understand why the people are using it and address that reason. Education, instruction and persuasion. Final random thought if the above fails. You're a sparks: cattle fence technology on the door handle to deactivate once the first person gets a jolt! That way only one person gets elecrically hurt whist everybody else trips over them in the rush to get back to work.
paul.skyrme  
#12 Posted : 26 January 2012 18:36:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Thanks all for your replies. I did not give the reason for our being there and my question deliberately as I wanted open ideas. I have not misled you. I'll try to answer the responses one by one. Cahill33411, I can't "walk" I am there doing a periodic inspection of the electrical install, to complete an EICR for the clients insurance requirements. bob, It is outside my area of competence, the client does not have their own H&S professionals. I am asking because we are there doing the PI on the wiring and they have and are burning out heaters very often as they are on all day flat out! bleve, I won't be fitting them, just suggesting to the client that they have them fitted. Kate, I was not sure as these are “final” exits, internal doors I would expect to see self closers on. Safety Smurf, This is just the one amenity cabin, there are others with similar issues though this is the worst. Murray, I agree probably fruitless to inform HSE! Richard, May be a possibility, funding will be an issue unless we can show payback calculations. Walker, Quite! David, I was not sure about closers on final exit doors. I get the oxygen bit. Not sure about the break tie bit, the environment would not be conducive. The fire exist is being used as a short cut. I’m not worried about it being used, I am just trying to reduce the energy consumption and increase the reliability of the electrical install. Not sure about the cattle fence bit, though I like it! All I was checking is that it was OK for me to suggest it to them without getting egg on my face by the fact that it is not allowed under fire regs or something the like, as it is a final exit rather than an internal compartment door. Most final exits I have seen don’t have closers, whilst, most internal ones do, that was my concern to be honest. Thanks all.
Zimmy  
#13 Posted : 26 January 2012 19:13:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

Fit a sign stating that 'This is an emergency exit and NOT is to be used other than...Guess what ? An emergency exit' Think of the health benefits due to the exercise the people will have walking a few feet. The heat generated will help with the heating bill.
Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.