Rank: Forum user 
|
Hi All,
A few ideas from fellow practitioners would be appreciated to get my grey matter working; details below.
Pregnant employee in a high st retail environment.
Toilets located upstairs.
Employee is on crutches due to hip probles brought on by pregnancy.
GP has said fit to work but adjustments needed; more specifically toilets on same floor - we cant do this obviously, cost and no room.
We have offered:
Assistance to toilets in neighbouring site who are happy to allow use - shes not happy with
Relocation to another site nearer to her home with WC on same floor - shes not happy with as too far from train station to site (we are talking metres rather than miles)
Relocation to another site in same town as her main site though located in a shopping centre - shes not happy with as toilets too far but on same floor
In response to immediate above we offered wheelchair or mobility scooter to get to and from - she would feel demoralised doing this and declined.
We will also offer reduced hours of work - not discussed yet.
How reasonable do we have to be vs how reasonable does she have to be?
Ideas welcome from all
Many thanks in advance
Anthony
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user 
|
IMO you both need to meet half way - it seems you have gone further than that!
She needs to be reasonable - is she looking for extra time off over and above Maternity leave entitlement?
Have you asked her what she wants?
Can you ask her GP about recommended adjustments?
Occupational health practitioner?
Do you have a department that looks after such people?
Is there somewhere she can do light duties such as paperwork near to a toilet?
Being pregnant means more frequent visits to the loo and her temporary disability means she needs to be even closer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
@Firesafety101
Surely meeting halfway would result in a mess on the stairs?! Possible slip risk!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Before you offer anything else - ask her what suits as FS 101 says.
At the end of the day - i would say you have done a good job so far - ask her what she wants - then pass everything on to her HR manager. Document everything just in case?
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: New forum user
|
How many month is the employee pregnant? This will have a bearing on the outcome of arrangements
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: New forum user
|
Quote=steve copic]How many months is the employee pregnant? This will have a bearing on the outcome of arrangements
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Have you considered getting an independent review of her condition? Get an assessment of her condition to see if she can actually be at work, if not get her to go sick (I suspect that is what she may want anyway) you have done all that is reasonably practicable to help her continue working but if you insist om her working until she is entitled to go on maternity leave and ssomething goes wrong with the pregnancy she could make a claim for damages caused by her having to continue working in less than favourable conditions. The supply of a wheelchair etc is highly offensive and I suggest wrong as it is hard to see how that can be deemed as helping.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
spaceninja wrote:@Firesafety101
Surely meeting halfway would result in a mess on the stairs?! Possible slip risk! So much for trying to be helpful and providing sensible advice? It takes all sorts I suppose.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
The issue IMO is not pregnancy - that happens to most women, its more the hip problem causing lack of good mobility.
Concentrate on that - think what you would do for anyone with walking difficulty and go from there,
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Firesafety, the pregnancy is the cause (or it is stated it is the cause) of the problem. There are many complications in pregnancy, my daughter had lots of problems with her second child and was in hospital for many weeks before he was born and cost the tax payer lots of money,. so this ladies problems are most likely one of those types of things and must be managed correctly. As I have said getting a second independent view is a sensible course of action and if the result is a recommendation that she does not continue to work then so be it, get her off on the sick due to complications with her health, end of the problem.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Thanks so far to all contributors - this is why I love safety; in previous operational roles i have held there was no such sense of community and helpfulness.
Additional info in response to above comments:
The employee is 5 months pregnant and is due to go on meternity in May.
She has said she thinks it best if she doesn't return to work but is given time off on full pay!
I really do want to ensure the wellbeing of mother and baby but equally I do not want to just roll over and potentially allow the business to be taken advantage of......
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
There we have it then, the employer does not want to be taken for a ride! There is always more than one side to any disputed topic. As I said get the second opinion and the originaa will become much more clear. Hope you resolve this satifactorally very soon. A problem shared is a problem solved or so the saying goes, in this case only time will tell. Good luck.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
bob the employee is pregnant but her mobility is affected by the hip problem.
She wants to go off sick on full pay.
They are the two issues.
Resolve the mobility issue then look after the pregnancy.
If the employer has a policy on full sick pay then she could go off however GP says fit for work and pregnancy is not sick.
The employee can choose when to go on maternity leave but she does not wish to start her maternity clock ticking.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Bob, it's not about being taken for a ride it's about both parties finding a happy medium which so far the employee has not been flexible on. We will offer reduced hours and there are talks of paying taxi fares to and from train station. If she refuses these then I think I will be inclined to advise the business to stand firm with a fiar amount of comfort that we can evidence our reasonableness. Hopefully it wont come to that and it will have a mutually happy ending.
Fire, your last posting is very pertinent in all areas especially the last comment.
Not once has she offered to bring her mat. date forward which, before everyone jumps on me, the business would not want or accept. To me the process should be about mediation which is a two way street and at present it is only one way!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
In the first posting it is clearly stated that "Employee is on crutches due to hip probles brought on by pregnancy".
Therefore the prgnancy is the cause of the hip problem so manage the pregnancy. She works in a retail environment which means quite a bit of standing and walking about. If she has difficulty doing this she is unfit to be in work, so get a second opinion as to how debilitating the problem and and get her to go sick, which is what she is after anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Bob the lady isn't sick she is pregnant! Her GP has already declared her fit for work.
The employer has probably got a "light duties" system for pregnant workers but this lady isn't having any.
Would you suggest every pregnant female employee takes her pregnant time as sick, I don't think so. That's what maternity leave is for.
As I say manage the problem with the hip then the pregnancy.
I agree Anthony stand your ground and leave the onus on the employee after offering all you have.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Anthony,
Have HR been involved yet? It looks like you've tried to make some reasonable adjustments etc, the employee just wants to go sick and now there's an impasse. What do your HR people think and what is the company policy?
Sometimes us safety people end up trying to manage issues that others either don't know about, don't want to know about or are happy to leave to 'Elf'n'safety so when it all goes wrong they can waive it off as another H&S problem with their own reputation unsullied,
Jim
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
and other times other people just don't know what to do so 'elf & safety is the best place to start - or the last resort!
I'd like to know how it works out please.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Anthony,
Unfortunately I think you are in a no win situation.
With the information provided so far, the only realistic suggestion I can make is ask the lady to come in and have a chat with HR & yourself, if HR is a male, I would also suggest a female friend as well to try and help the lady feel more comfortable.
I have known ladies suffer quite badly with their hips during and after pregnancy so I would also seek advice from an Occ Health Professional, not a GP. Don't forget you have a higher duty of care, you then have to way up the cost of this v her staying at home.
Get as much information together as possible, give advice and let HR make the decision.
Good luck
Clive
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user 
|
bob shillabeer wrote:Have you considered getting an independent review of her condition? Get an assessment of her condition to see if she can actually be at work, if not get her to go sick (I suspect that is what she may want anyway) you have done all that is reasonably practicable to help her continue working but if you insist om her working until she is entitled to go on maternity leave and ssomething goes wrong with the pregnancy she could make a claim for damages caused by her having to continue working in less than favourable conditions. The supply of a wheelchair etc is highly offensive and I suggest wrong as it is hard to see how that can be deemed as helping. Bob, you can't make her go off sick, the regulations state that if you cannot make adjustments then she can be be suspended on pay. However I do think that this is her aim.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user 
|
Is there a role within the business that she can do from home? Alternatively can a commode be put somewhere on her floor?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
quote=Invictus] bob shillabeer wrote:Have you considered getting an independent review of her condition? Get an assessment of her condition to see if she can actually be at work, if not get her to go sick (I suspect that is what she may want anyway) you have done all that is reasonably practicable to help her continue working but if you insist om her working until she is entitled to go on maternity leave and ssomething goes wrong with the pregnancy she could make a claim for damages caused by her having to continue working in less than favourable conditions. The supply of a wheelchair etc is highly offensive and I suggest wrong as it is hard to see how that can be deemed as helping. Bob, you can't make her go off sick, the regulations state that if you cannot make adjustments then she can be be suspended on pay. However I do think that this is her aim. I think you will need a good HR input with this. It sounds like you have looked at many avenues that can be described as 'reasonable adjustments' and the employee is not willing to budge on the issues. You could ask her to work with you, even on a trial basis regarding distance etc if relocated to another store, even taxi if cost effective from station etc? Alternatively option is to write to her GP, especially if she is under a 'fit note' condition in which an employer can look at the option of challenging the GP's details etc. As above, this needs close discussion with HR and line management.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
MB1 I am not suggesting you make her go sick as this is the role of the doctor, but if she is unable to work because of medical condition so be it. Better to have her off work than run the risk of injury because she cant move effectively. Your suggestion of getting HR involved is a first step in any such problem and I would have thought HR would be jumping up and down if all this was going on behind thier back so to speak. The main answer is to get her into a position that reduces the risk to both her and the company.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Sorry Bob,
I tried to quote Invictus part (re: aim).
I'm also involved in retail where as predominant female employees raise similar issues and with the right team that include HR etc have not had to suspend on full pay, even with mobility issue.
I do agree the option is always there but I do possibly detect a stubbornness to even try out the other options and adjust where necessary to have a good outcome for all parties involved.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user 
|
Do we arrive at the position then where the employee's refusal to comply with the employer's reasonable requests constitute grounds for dismissal? Over to HR!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Is there a risk assessment? If not do one with the employee and HR, if so did it involve the employee and HR?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
It may be worthwhile involving an independent occupatonal health physician/nurse--they are competent persons for interpreting light work/limitations in context of the individual instead of ourselves making judgements based on limited information and no in-depth assessment or knowlege of the situation!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Thanks again all for the input.
Jay - I'm not on here asking for my peers to manage the safety function in my business just for different ideas and probably the validation we all need when we hit a brick wall. Your OH suggestion was put on the table first thing this morning as chance would have it- with HR saying they will write to GP for advice instead as it's free??!!(in a fashion), which i'm fine with. My Experience would say that GP's can be (not always) reluctant to respond and or offer advice notwithsatnding the time it takes for response which indirectly costs. Employee is suspended on full pay until response is received.
FireSafety - Risk assessment has been done which is where the current offers came in. I will let you know the outcome when the dust settles.
I am confident now that I have done pretty much all I can in terms of offering reasonable adjustments and will wait for expert medical opinion before closing my casebook on the subject and as Ron suggests passing "over to HR" in full.
So long as I have done everything I can to help the lady without doing a disservice to the business I can sit fairly comfortably.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
1 Bad hips not caused by work injury therefore not a work-related-problem
2 Due to bad hip not fit to work in her current post.
3 Sully there are arraignments in place for disabled people at the place of work? If not, why not?
As I see it, not fit to do her job. Offer her a position on the floor with a WC. If none then lay her off
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
This one may get pulled but...If she is on crutches she poses a hazard and will need a RA all of her own as if the building needs to be evacuated as in a 'fire drill' for example. I have a feeling here that in a real fire she may out-run you all?
If all else fails... incontinant pants!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
zimmy wrote:1 Bad hips not caused by work injury therefore not a work-related-problem
2 Due to bad hip not fit to work in her current post.
3 Sully there are arraignments in place for disabled people at the place of work? If not, why not?
As I see it, not fit to do her job. Offer her a position on the floor with a WC. If none then lay her off 1. and 2. It is work related 'cos it is affecting her ability to do her job. 3. She is not disabled. Will require a PEEP however. You may be right about her outrunning in a fire situation but until that occurs, where is the compassion for en employee who is pregnant and has complicated hip problem? Is there a trade union rep or other workers rep?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
my two pennies worth...it seems you have and are willing to make reasonable adjustments...the employee does have a duty to co-operate and it seems that it is not happening...it may be down to the relationship the employee has with the line manager rather than the efforts you are making....as others have said good discussion with HR may well sort things out one way or the other..
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Gents, coming from a lady who has been pregnant and worked (still working) in construction, the lady in question is not messing, her 'condition' relationg to her hips is no joke I can assure you, its is down right sore. If it is SPD that she has. It affects every woman different owing to the shape/ size of the pelvis and age. I had it toward the end of my pregnancy along with high blood pressure, in the end I remained in the office on light duties and finished up earlier than I had wanted to because I just couldnt walk.
Therefore, you need to answer,
1.How far pregnant is she?
2. She is working for you, a retail outlet, is there scope for her to work from home?
3. What is her current role?
4. How old is the lady in question?
5. You do not have facilities for her (on the same level) - would there be scope for a portable toilet?
6. What does she want?
As far as relocating her, yes you have done your bit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Taking my whatsit out of my cheek.
She was not injured in work and as such is not a work related injury. she is injured yes and this is the problem NOT the baby.
If no suitable position is there for her then there is not a lot you can do is there?
If disabled wc is there (as it should be) then she could use that. I did NOT say she was disabled as well you know.
As it stands she is not fit to do her job and it seems that she is not prepared to help out here. And compassion for someone who is not helping in the matter? None sorry.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Note to the Mods please.
Please delete all my input on all matters. I have had enough. I no longer wish to be assocciated with this and can no longer roll along with the silly end of this stuff. Sometimes one just has to place a firm boot on someones backside and people like the lady in question is one of then.
Don't bother emailing me just lock me out of the site.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
I'm getting like zimmy, a bit fed up with this one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
AnthonyH wrote:Thanks so far to all contributors - this is why I love safety; in previous operational roles i have held there was no such sense of community and helpfulness. Agreed. Which is why it's disappointing to see some toys being ejected from prams when you're simply trying to ensure that you have ensured that your company has a robust position for if/when it "goes legal". A perception that the individual is some sort of work-shy layabout doesn't help anyone when it comes to a tribunal. Good on you for trying to sort out what is a difficult situation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
zimmy wrote:She was not injured in work and as such is not a work related injury. she is injured yes and this is the problem NOT the baby.
You are the secret Daily Mail reporter and I claim my £10! It's not an injury at all - it's a complication with the pregnancy. From the information given, she's certainly not helping herself, but an employer still has a duty to make sure things are done correctly (in the broadest sense of employment law, not just in terms of H&S), so whilst a quick hoof to the derriere may be tempting, Anthony is doing absolutely the right thing here to make sure the company's position is defensible.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Anthony,
You stated in your first post that you were going to discuss reduced working hours, perhaps this is your best option at present.
Can I also suggest a meeting with said pregnant lady, and discuss, perhaps she is afraid to be moved to another location and feels she may not be able to return to her position after her maternity leave, or perhaps she is just being awkward.
If you can, can you please look up SPD, if is not a 'hip injury', it occurs in pregnancy for some women, and is rather sore.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.