Rank: Forum user
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Hello
Any ideas on what the time scales are for practical fire extinguisher training for fire marshalls are?
Any comments greatly appreciated!
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Rank: Super forum user
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Hi meredith, the answer will depend on the fire exposures. At one end of may be those in an office, with those in a young persons care home or hospital at the other end.
Under what circumstances would you expect your fire marshalls to use an extinguisher?
Some organisations use the annual servicing of extinguishers as an opportunity for staff to squirt some water.
Sadly I do not believe you will receive a definitive answer here. A training organisation will advise one frequency, several experts will each have their own opinions whilst your own competent fire risk assessor will no doubt have their own take on the matter. In my opinion the latter is the one to listen to.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Hi
My Company's insurance Co. is suggesting practical training once a year now
SW
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Rank: Super forum user
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That's not unreasonable. You quickly forget what you don't practice.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I am pretty sure our fire marshal course carries a three year validity...
As stated it's a risk based decision..
Some crazy folk now suggests you don't train anyone as fire extinguishers are there for show and to look pretty. It is true that when used incorrectly things can get worse, but when used properly, after alarm sounded etc etc....
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Thanks for the info guys, much appreciated!
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Rank: Super forum user
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We have set the periodicity for retraining at two years on the advice on the training provider
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Rank: Super forum user
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Did some training in the use of fire extingishers some 25 years ago or maybe even longer. Can still remember the details and the practicalities of using several types on several types of fire, but thats just me. However, since doing the training never had cause to use one as my policy is to get everyone out of the building before letting the proffesionals, the fire brigade, do thier work. One thing that worries mr about this posting and the somewhat ease that the prinicple of the fire marshal fighting the fire rather than getting people to evacuate is of some serious worry.
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On our site every employee (Including Fire Marshals) has fire awareness training once a year ie identification, selection and operation of hand held fire extinguishers and a description of the fire suppression systems on site. Fire marshalls receive an additional annual briefing reinforcing and reminding them of thier specific priority during a real fire event or a drill, which is to ensure that the building is evacuated quickly and safely.
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Rank: Super forum user
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The clue is in the name FIRE MARSHAL, the role is not to catch the fire or fight it; it is to ensure everyone evacuates in a timely manner. If I found a fire marshall fighting a fire I would remove the responsibility there and then as they are not doing what they should be doing, ie getting people to evacuate the building. Fire extinguishers these days are not required in my opinion as the first duty is to evacuate and let the fire services do thier thing professionally. Let the insurance company worry about getting the repairs etc done and of course implement your disater recovery plan.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Personally I believe its right to train all employees in the basics of fire extinguishers, but retain the policy of no employees fighting fires.
We want to ensure that if a fire blocks the escape of an employee, they are able to tackle it to get out to a place of safety.
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Rank: Super forum user
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guru, under what circumstances would the fire escape be blocked by a fire? There is a legal requirement to ensure that fire escape routes are clear of combustible materials and if properly designed that would be the case. There have been several fires in night clubs where fire doors have been locked with disasterous results, but thankfully that is now a thing of the past (hopefully). The first duty of any employer is to ensure that a full and safe evacuation of the premises is made, fire extinguishers are now a thing of the past and I feel very soon they will be abolished as an effective means of fighting fires, they are only of use in very small fires such as littler bins etc.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Hi Bob, I completely agree with you regarding the requirement to ensure clear escape routes etc etc. I do however have less confidence that requirement is consistantly met, and have seen this first hand.
IMO, employees should not be fighting fires, and raising the alarm and getting to a place of safety should always be the priority.
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Guru, the point you make about having less comfidence in the fire escape routes being clear is one for the fire authorities to deal with and inspect and procecute those who fail to do it correctly. The fact that fire extinguishers are now looked upon as being nice decoration to show committment to fire safety the hidden bits are often overlooked. Time to take a long hard lok at fire safety in the workplace (as required by law) seems to be the best way forward.
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Hi Bob/Guru et al
Under what circumstances would a fire exit be blocked? Let's not forget that the door to a room with only one door is also the fire exit from that room, it can be a meeting room a store room or any other type of room. I can foresee many circumstances when these doors might become obstructed by fire, it is why larger rooms are required to have more than one exit, specifically because it is recognised that one exit might be obstructed. I'm not quite sure how you expect the fire authorities to deal with and prosecute, they don't have the manpower to get around and inspect every workplace. In fact the law places the onus upon the owner/occupier to police.
It seems contradictory to me to say that fire extinguishers are a thing of the past and then go on to say they are only useful for fighting small fires and that they are decoration. Are they decoration? If so why say they are useful for fighting small fires (as they were intended)? If they are useful then how are they a thing of the past?
Fire extinguishers are required. To say they are not is utter nonsense. Your suggestion to evacuate a building and leave the firefighting to the professionals is not a common sense approach. This implies that for even the smallest fires you would do nothing about it. You would let it grow, with the potential risk of endangering the lives of those who have not been able to evacuate in time, with the added consequence that firefighters may also have to put themselves at risk to save the lives of those who have been unable to escape.
Lives have been saved through the use of extinguishers by employees, so have people's jobs and livelihoods. Of course there are circumstances where it is not practical to tackle a fire and evacuation is the correct action but this is why we provide training so that people understand what to do and when to do it.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I have to agree with Shaun, that this risk adverse 'run away' attitude is not always sensible is it? Every single fire that you have ever seen on TV or for real starts as something smaller - often something small enough to be controlled with an extinguisher. So why just turn and run, and why the mystic surrounding the use of extinguishers?
Extinguishers are not difficult to operate. If you can use an aerosol can, you can use an extinguisher. The skill is assessing when not to use it and how to stay safe in that potentially hazardous dynamic environment.
I simply hate the 'eliminate risk is the goal' attitude which is so prevalent in H&S and the negative views re the use of extinguishers is a very good example of that 'easy' attitude. If quality training is given, with 90% focused on if and when extinguishers should be used, and 10% on how to select and squirt - I reckon for most medium and low risk locations, this would be suitable.
The health and safety industry (fire safety) needs to take a more positive stance on first aid firefighting. I accept that in premises where high fire risks are present in terms of loading, high voltage or very flammable materials are in use, but where the interventions risks are low, I cannot see why this should not be procedure, but lower risk such as offices - why not?
With a root and branch change in the way fire services operate under way (in the form of cuts) and more changes on the way (after the Warwickshire firefighter deaths court case later this year - regardless of the outcome), it is not a good idea to rely on the idea that the fire service will arrive in 5 mins and deal with the fire immediately, as that may well be a thing of the past very soon.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Back to the question....in my previous life (not reincarnated although I'm sure some wanted me burned...) 2 years for all employees unless covered by other certification including practical fire fighting...Fire Marshals should be part of 6 monthly evacuation and then same refresher..
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Looking back at the original question and I notice it says "Any ideas on what the time scales are for practical fire extinguisher training for fire marshalls are?" So firsly why fire marshalls, thier work starts when the fire alarm is sounded which would result in most people evacuating the building to waiting for the fire marshalls to dash in with Fire Extinguishers at the ready. The principle task of a fire marshall is to ensure that people are evacuating the building in the correct manner not dashing off to fight the fire. If you do want to train people to use a fire extinguisher you will need to ensure that enough people are trained, subject to refresher training at a timescale dictated by thier ability to retain the skill (if it is a skill), but dont limit it to fire marshals as they already have a job to do in a fire condition, getting people out not fighting the fire.
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Rank: Super forum user
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sorry mean Fire marshals on 2 years...not 6 monthly...they would get the practice every 6 months with refresher training every 2 years...it is up to you based on your risks..
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Rank: Super forum user
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It is risk based, so I suggest you decide if the probability of a fire is high, and then you need to focus on the plan.
I had a fire risk assessor in yesterday, and he is conducting training in 2 weeks time for a number of persons from our org, this training is on fires, how they start, spread, types of extinguishers and how to use an extinguisher 'in the event of a fire and your exit is impeded and you need to use one to exit'
Therefore more emphases should be place on the actual evacuation procedure/plan rather than the extinguisher training, as you are wanting to ensure that everyone is out of the building not fighting fires.
The Fire Services purpose is to rescue persons from burning buildings not actually fighting fires. There is currently a case ongoing whereby 3 main Fire Services member of management are in court for manslaughter of 5 of their Fire Men, there was no one to rescue but the fire men were informed to go tackle the fire, and in doing so all 5 died because the roof fell in, should the management be found guilty then I would assume there will be big changes to Fire Management.
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