Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Psycho  
#1 Posted : 08 February 2012 16:06:44(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Psycho

Got asked a question today thought i would put it on here an agency worker has been employed for a company to do some work (company A) she adjusts a radiator and the tap comes off scolding her the building is rented from a landlord to be used as office accomodation the maintenance of the building is carried out by company A, contracted maintenance the radiator valve was reported for maintenance as the valve was loose and dripping water it was put down as low priority 7 days and a sign was put on it by the full time office workers saying be careful loose my question is who is the liable party and why is it, the agency, the company, the landlord, the employee or multiple who would the soliciter go against
David Bannister  
#2 Posted : 08 February 2012 16:13:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Suggest leave it to the solicitor to figure out and put up your own defence if and when neeeded.
MB1  
#3 Posted : 08 February 2012 16:35:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MB1

Payout for what? Disfigurement, incapacity??? The insurers will manage this so long as the correct information is given to them.
bob youel  
#4 Posted : 08 February 2012 16:47:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

I am presuming that the lady was working in admin and not as a plumber? Find out who the 'controller' of the lady was and that person would be the responsible / liable person - usually in a simple agency supplying an admin worker case its the company controlling the agency person on a day to day basis that has the liabilities and if you ID who paid the invoice from the agency to the commissioner of their services for their service you will usually ID who is the controller NB: I do not think that a 'folly of their own' would apply if all she was doing was adjusting a radiator by its 'normal' day 2 day average adjuster system that anybody at home would be familiar with! If she went beyond the day 2 day adjuster system then a % of a 'folly' may apply
Stedman  
#5 Posted : 08 February 2012 23:03:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Stedman

Radiator valves are normally limited by the thread and the top of the valve. I have never ever heard of them coming undone. If they did I am sure that we would all be implementing periodic inspections and replacing these all with thermostatically controlled valves. Has any other member investigated this type of accident?
NEE' ONIONS MATE!  
#6 Posted : 09 February 2012 05:51:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NEE' ONIONS MATE!

don't worry about it mate. Like the first responder says, let the 'sillysodder' sort it oot. Just dinnit let it happen again!
Jack Sears  
#7 Posted : 09 February 2012 11:59:52(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Jack Sears

MB1 wrote:
Payout for what?
Psychological damage, I guess, by being reprimanded and criticised harshly by a tap.
Phil Grace  
#8 Posted : 10 February 2012 11:20:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Phil Grace

As previous poster said - tell insurers and let them sort it out. An agency worker would generally be reagded as an employee. A claimant solicitor would go against the employer - claiming under EL is by far the easiest approach. The EL insurer will then decide whether there is any hope of involving other parties such as landlord, maintenance firms etc. Just don't worry about it! Phil
Triblim  
#9 Posted : 10 February 2012 15:59:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Triblim

Easy one that really. She is employed by the agency therefore they pay her wages therefore they will have EL insurance. If she wishes to claim via EL then her solicitor will go to her employer. Yup after that it could get mucky but remember the 3 tenents of civil law: was a duty of care owed to the employee (see that last word!) was that duty breached did it result in a loss Been involved with a number of these and it has to go back to the employer they are working for contractually (not the agents contract as a labour service provider) as only then can they seek money via an EL claim.
Phil Grace  
#10 Posted : 12 February 2012 11:42:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Phil Grace

For Triblim, It is not that easy.... employment of agency workers is a very murky affair. There has been lots of employment tribunal case law regarding wages, holiday pay etc. Insofar as H&S law is concerned it is generally recognised that the "firm" that has the greatest degree of control will be the employer. In many cases that is NOT the agency but the firm that issues the orders, that tells the agency worker what to do, that gives him the tools, PPE etc and that supplies the FLT that the agency worker drives etc. Phil
RayRapp  
#11 Posted : 12 February 2012 12:13:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

A bit of a minefield this one. My understanding is that the 'employer' is normally the person who pays the wages, usually through a contract of employment as opposed to a contract for services. In the case of an Agency, it would be the Agency who is the employer and insurance cover would be via the Agency's ELI. The Agency will also adopt employers duties eg providing PPE free of charge. The third party will still have h&s responsibilities for the agency worker ie s3(1) but would not normally be considered the employer, although they may be obliged to treat an agency worker as if they were an employee, if, they have been working there for a significant period of time. As I said, a bit of a mare...
Canopener  
#12 Posted : 12 February 2012 22:26:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

I am equally unconvinced with the assertion that this is ’an easy one’. The ‘tenets’ of civil law do not rely on there being an employer/employee relationship; so in that respect the first tenet being quoted isn’t entirely accurate. It is merely a matter of whether a duty was owed, not whether a duty was owed to an EMPLOYEE. I suggest that liability and insurance, while potentially linked at some point, are in fact 2 entirely separate things. I don’t think that you can necessarily hope to claim off someone merely because they have insurance (although I am sure that some do), but more a matter of who will either ACCEPT liability, or if no one does, who is subsequently FOUND to be liable; if anyone. Although the agency may be regarded as the employer for PAYE/NI purposes (and there have been plenty of ET cases to suggest that this is the case) it does not necessarily follow that they will be the employer for H&S purposes. I take the same view as Phil Grace, in that the person who has the greatest element of control over the worker is likely to be regarded as the employer, to all intents and purposes. I would have thought that in most cases an employer would be reasonably wise to treat an agency worker as an employee for the purposes of safeguarding their health and safety. Interestingly enough some agencies to my knowledge are still struggling with the concept of supplying PPE; as are some employers! I am left wondering whether the AWR will give rise to more clarity in time! As for who is to blame, who is liable, and who makes the payout? Only time will tell!
SteveL  
#13 Posted : 13 February 2012 09:51:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SteveL

If company A have control over what work is to be done, and how it is to be done. Then they are the company that is liable. The fact that the the employee works for an agency does not come into it. Company A have assumed control and liability. Triblim was a duty of care owed to the employee (see that last word!) was that duty breached did it result in a loss It matters not if an employee. Donoghue v. Stevenson, Rose v Plenty These were not employees, Civil law cares not if an employee only that duties were breached and causation resulted.
Phil Grace  
#14 Posted : 13 February 2012 11:20:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Phil Grace

Just to pick up on what Stevel said that civil law does not care whether the injured person is an employee. That is only partly correct. I agree that the first "test" is whether there is a duty of care owed. But after that has been established then a further question is whether there was a master and servant relationship i.e. an employment scenario. If the answer to that is "Yes" then there is a furether set of "common law" duties that revolve around: a safe place of work safe premises and access/egress to them safe plant and equipment competent and triaend fellow employees. So there is a distinction between employee claimants and "the rest" - that is predominately claimants under Public Liability policies. Phil
G W Bell  
#15 Posted : 13 February 2012 12:08:45(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
G W Bell

If there is a duty of care owed then it will be between Company A and the employee. Company A may depending on their rental agreement be able to counter sue their landlord.
Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.