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BuzzLightyear  
#1 Posted : 15 February 2012 11:09:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
BuzzLightyear

So it's out: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l73.pdf Bargain at only £17 for a hard copy! I see they are still requiring employers to record >3Day injuries but only to report to HSE if they are >7Days. We already require our staff to record all injuries. I wonder, does the requirement to continue recording >3day injuries mean we will have to continue to differentiate >3day injuries from others injuries within our records?
SP900308  
#2 Posted : 15 February 2012 11:52:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SP900308

Buzz, £0 to download!
safetyamateur  
#3 Posted : 15 February 2012 11:57:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
safetyamateur

Buzz, I've taken it to mean that, yes, we do need to differentiate. The fact that our incidents are recorded [hopefully as promptly as possible] doesn't necessarily mean that the inability to carry out full duties is recorded. So I'm all ready to ask managers to notify when incapacity hits 3 days and 7 days. We then notify HSE as appropriate and update the incident record.
peter gotch  
#4 Posted : 15 February 2012 12:55:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Spot on - so what is being sold as cutting Red Tape actually means that compliant companies will need to consider maintaining another level of stats.
redken  
#5 Posted : 15 February 2012 13:04:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
redken

B.Bruce  
#6 Posted : 15 February 2012 13:39:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
B.Bruce

On a more general note - its good to see that the HSE News Subscription service works! I have signed up to this with the understanding the HSE send out alerts regarding legislative changes, advice, guidance, etc. Didnt get anything on this one! ...........anyone else signed up to this service? Did you get an email alerting you to the new document?
redken  
#7 Posted : 15 February 2012 14:39:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
redken

when did you sign up? The above link is not news! "New guidance that explains the change will be available to download from the HSE website on 16 January 2012" http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/reporting-change.htm
BuzzLightyear  
#8 Posted : 15 February 2012 14:58:06(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
BuzzLightyear

SP900308, yes true - £0 to download. I do most reading on the screen, but when it comes to RIDDOR I don't know why but I like the hard copy. Safetyamateur and peter g, I was hoping my interpretation might be wrong but you seem to be confirming that my interpretation is correct. Oh well... Redken, Although it says download from 16th January, that was a predicted date. A friend, emailed me a copy of an anouncement dated 13/2/12 with the new guidance link. I'll have to ask him where he got his information from- may be it was an article rather than a newsletter.
walker  
#9 Posted : 15 February 2012 14:58:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

peter gotch wrote:
Spot on - so what is being sold as cutting Red Tape actually means that compliant companies will need to consider maintaining another level of stats.
Twas ever thus!
B.Bruce  
#10 Posted : 15 February 2012 15:05:04(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
B.Bruce

Redken - I signed up last year. Although I already knew of its impending release I dont have the time to review the HSE website every day. When I do get a chance I am using searching for a particular subject. I would expect the release of new guidance to be 'news' and therefore feature in the subscription service.
Canopener  
#11 Posted : 15 February 2012 15:30:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

This is from the HSE website at http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/reporting-change.htm "Employers and others with responsibilities under RIDDOR must still keep a record of all over three day injuries – if the employer has to keep an accident book, then this record will be enough." I am not quite sure how the keeping of a 'standard' accident book would help with this recording requirement!
safetyamateur  
#12 Posted : 15 February 2012 16:03:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
safetyamateur

BuzzLightyear wrote:
Safetyamateur and peter g, I was hoping my interpretation might be wrong but you seem to be confirming that my interpretation is correct. Oh well...
Not saying my interpretation's right, Buzz. Just figure life's too short.
jay  
#13 Posted : 15 February 2012 16:24:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

The regulations ahve been laid before parliament since 31st January 2012 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/199/made
MB1  
#14 Posted : 15 February 2012 16:39:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MB1

Has this bill been passed yet? I'm intrigued that the guidance has been given in anticipation although I very much doubt the same will happen in some recent non H&S bills being thrown about! It's interesting also to eventually find out what purpose the recording of over 3 day injuries are for, as has already been indicated that all accidents should be recorded.
jay  
#15 Posted : 16 February 2012 09:00:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

This is not a "Bill" that has to go through the full parliamentary procedure and pass through various stages in both the house of commens and lords to finally be an Act of parliament. It is a statutory instrument, i.e "regulation" that is laid before parliament as a "negative instrument" which becomes law without a debate or a vote but may be annulled by a resolution of either House of Parliament
safetyamateur  
#16 Posted : 16 February 2012 09:03:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
safetyamateur

Have to say I'm baffled by the amount of traffic on the RIDDOR issue - now or the past. Those regulations have always been waaaaaaaaay down my list of priorities. I do understand that some of your employers are twitchy when it comes to insurance but has there really been no effort to convince these companies (who, let's not forget, are risk people) that it's not a true performance indicator? Not ranting, just curious.
MB1  
#17 Posted : 16 February 2012 09:06:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MB1

Jay, Thank you for your in depth correction. I'm still wondering if this is the 1st time HSE have issued a guidance document to compliment a change of regulation prior to being brought into actionable issue into the public domain. I commend the proactiveness in bringing out an ACOP early and in this case unlikely to be amended prior to the date of inception.
walker  
#18 Posted : 16 February 2012 09:44:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

safetyamateur wrote:
Have to say I'm baffled by the amount of traffic on the RIDDOR issue - now or the past. Those regulations have always been waaaaaaaaay down my list of priorities. I do understand that some of your employers are twitchy when it comes to insurance but has there really been no effort to convince these companies (who, let's not forget, are risk people) that it's not a true performance indicator? Not ranting, just curious.
Your bafflement & attitude is healthy – lucky you! RIDDOR was intended as a statistics gathering tool so that HSE could target their resources – nothing more. Unfortunately business hijacked the system and use it to evaluate their supplier’s H&S credentials. Thus that particular burden on business was created by business and not any regs. Much to my disgust, in my company we “hand wring” over every RIDDOR as the outcome effects tenders (we are in a very H&S aware industry) and tender responses effect the winning of contracts worth tens of millions.
BuzzLightyear  
#19 Posted : 16 February 2012 10:18:53(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
BuzzLightyear

quote=safetyamateur]Have to say I'm baffled by the amount of traffic on the RIDDOR issue - now or the past. Those regulations have always been waaaaaaaaay down my list of priorities. I do understand that some of your employers are twitchy when it comes to insurance but has there really been no effort to convince these companies (who, let's not forget, are risk people) that it's not a true performance indicator? Not ranting, just curious.
I agree in that there does seem to be a lot of traffic about RIDDOR. I find it comes up from insurers, local authority tenders etc. I suppose they have to use some measure of accident history and it is probably the only common standard - when it comes to defining injuries. In our organisation, we use Assessnet, the online accident system, which sends a RIDDOR alert to me and the administrators when someone ticks a box on the system that the injury is an over three day one. We are a large national multi site social care organisation. With about 2000 injuries a year, I have to target my resources and the 50 RIDDORs that come to my attention are very useful for that. It is one of my tools to give me an idea of what is going on out there and enable me to make sure that investigations completed by our managers are completed thoroughly - so they can stand up to the rigours of courts and insurance claims. Another aspect of RIDDOR is that parts are confusing and require judgement. A frequent one that crops up in my line of work is when to report injuries to people we support (people with learning disabilities) that are taken to hospital from the scene. For it to be reportable it has to be in connection with work - rather than simply being a health condition, but so often this is a grey area. For example, if someone falls over and injures themselves because they have epilepsy or are unsteady on their feet, if a member of staff is gently supporting them at the time - maybe we should have had more staff on shift or may be less harsh objects in the care home - or may be not. The usual answer from the now gone-HSE incident contact centre was that if it is in relation to someone's health condition it is not reportable - unless it is someone's fault? Other parts of RIDDOR that seem a bit strange are the threshold between major and over three day. e.g broken nose - if it's the bone it's major, if it's cartilage it is not! The list of dangerous occurrences is rather strange too!
BuzzLightyear  
#20 Posted : 16 February 2012 10:42:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
BuzzLightyear

Just found out that my original post was based on a copy and paste a friend had sent me from SHP online newsletter. Therefore this is not new, just recycled news! I vaguely remember the HSE email newsletter about it the update and a thread on here all about it but can't have picked up the bit about having to still record >3day injuries when I saw the guidelines the first time round.
gramsay  
#21 Posted : 20 February 2012 17:14:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
gramsay

Apologies for restarting an old thread, but I'd like to ask a question based on the responses above. A couple of points were made about the (confusing) way in which information has been presented about the need to record over-3-day injuries. Specifically: Has this introduced a new category of recording (ie minor, +3, +7, major, fatality, etc, etc). Some responders thought it did, but the discussion moved on a bit. I don't see how it has. The way I read the HSE's position & the Amendment Regs, our duty to handle +3-day events is no different from our duties in relation to people who are unable to work for more than 1,2,4,5, or 6 days. Specifically, the HSE are saying that an accident book record alone will fulfil our recording responsibilities. I think they could have worded this better, and were just trying to show that accidents previously considered serious enough to report won't just be ignored. Am I hopelessly optimistic?
Jake  
#22 Posted : 20 February 2012 17:26:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

gramsay wrote:
Apologies for restarting an old thread, but I'd like to ask a question based on the responses above. A couple of points were made about the (confusing) way in which information has been presented about the need to record over-3-day injuries. Specifically: Has this introduced a new category of recording (ie minor, +3, +7, major, fatality, etc, etc). Some responders thought it did, but the discussion moved on a bit. I don't see how it has. The way I read the HSE's position & the Amendment Regs, our duty to handle +3-day events is no different from our duties in relation to people who are unable to work for more than 1,2,4,5, or 6 days. Specifically, the HSE are saying that an accident book record alone will fulfil our recording responsibilities. I think they could have worded this better, and were just trying to show that accidents previously considered serious enough to report won't just be ignored. Am I hopelessly optimistic?
The amount of information has not changed, but it is the fact that you need to have a category for 3-7 day accidents (otherwise how would you be able to demonstrate, if requested by the HSE, your O3D accidents that arnt O7D accidents). The gudiance states that if requested you would need to be able to show your O3D accidents, the general interpretation is that this wouldn't be achieved by just showing all minor accidents that would include O3D, there is a need for a specific category. It is this requirement to be able document which accidents fall into the 3-7 day category that is the burden, as our accident reports have to be changed again and our databases amended to add the 3-7 day category (aswell as the O7D category).
gramsay  
#23 Posted : 20 February 2012 21:47:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
gramsay

Hi Jake, thanks for the reply. I do see where you're coming from, and I guess I'm just sticking my neck out till it gets cut off! I'm still not convinced, but prepared to be proved wrong... I'm not one for looking for reasons not to do the right thing, but in this case (in which a company already maintains a compliant accident record) I can't see the Regs asking for the recording of a separate category. Reg 7 asks us to record over-3-days (which we do, and will continue to do via accident book, etc), and we'll provide the HSE with extracts as required. I don't see anything in the Regulations, and only one point in the Guidance (in reference to BI510 accident records, which is only one of the three examples given of acceptable recording) specifying any distinction between RIDDOR and non-RIDDOR. Nowhere do the Regs state we need to supply info on accidents involving 3-7 days incapacity, just that our records should be available for examination, etc. I was just wary of this turning into the situation described in Prof L's review regarding implementation of the W@H regs straying into more than what was originally intended. Surely a new "Category" would only make sense if that Category was being reported on or to someone else, which it isn't? The fact that many of us choose to, or are required to, already record accidents below the Reporting threshold should mean we already comply with the 3-day Recording threshold. I know all will be clear within a few months, but for now it's very useful to look for alternative opinions. Thanks
redken  
#24 Posted : 22 February 2012 16:15:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
redken

DWP Health and Safety Sponsorship team's comment: “The RIDDOR guidance has recently been updated to reflect the change, from April 2012, to reporting requirements from over-three-day injuries to workers over 7 day injuries. However, HSE intends a full review of RIDDOR, in line with the recommendations of Lord Young and Prof Lofstedt, to improve the clarity of the regulations. This will provide the opportunity to thoroughly review the guidance and ensure that it is also clear and simple to understand. HSE is committed to completing this work by end of 2013.”
safetyamateur  
#25 Posted : 23 February 2012 10:27:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
safetyamateur

redken wrote:
DWP Health and Safety Sponsorship team's comment: “The RIDDOR guidance has recently been updated to reflect the change, from April 2012, to reporting requirements from over-three-day injuries to workers over 7 day injuries. However, HSE intends a full review of RIDDOR, in line with the recommendations of Lord Young and Prof Lofstedt, to improve the clarity of the regulations. This will provide the opportunity to thoroughly review the guidance and ensure that it is also clear and simple to understand. HSE is committed to completing this work by end of 2013.”
Cue even more confusion. I despair.
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