Hi We have carried out an assessment and decided not to deploy AED in any of out offices and technical sites regards Dave

I would discuss with your first aiders - who would generally be the people requesting these. I train first aid and can honestly say that as the chances of someone surviving through CPR alone are almost remote, and that a AED would increase their chance of survival by about 70-80% (CPR alone 3% approx) - I would strongly recommend there to be one available. Again, as above posts say it will depend on the outcome of your RA as well, number of staff, likelihood of heart attacks etc, which is someone difficult to second guess. However, having said that and bearing these stats in mind, we don't have any. Also bear in mind that you do not have to be trained to use one, they are desgined to be used by the man in the street, they are very user friendly and the new ones would not allow you to shock an un-shockable casualty. Hope this helps. Ang.

Well Ang Id like to see the evidence of 3% for CPR alone I persoanlly -out of work -have carried out quite a few times (CPR) and I have a success rate of around 35%. The age range varied from 16 to 70+ If Cpr alone had such little chance of gaining survival until the emergency services arrived then Im sure the Resus council would have taken a different tack along time ago!

achrn Given the numbers you quote, I personally would not support the introduction of an AED. Some years ago when I was researching the subject via the British Heart Foundation, it was clear that they were looking at situations where many hundreds of people were involved, not small numbers. We eventually did purchase one, but only after our Insurers stipulated that only full first-aiders could operate them after additional training (& continued training!). Yes, I am aware that lives can be saved by their use, but our "history" is that over the past 8 years or so, the AED has only been used twice, & sadly with no happy outcome. Zyggy

I would very strongly recommend having AED's if you can afford them. We have a total of nine on site, we have two of these at remote off site locations. We operate seven days a week and at peak times have 3,000 people on site (we are a School). Sudden cardiac arrest can occour at any age and the annual cost is significantly less that we spend on fire extinguishers. I am a first aid trainer and we do regular training in both CPR and the use of AED's and they are very easy to use. The latest guidance I have states that the current UK survival rates CPR alone are 6% and a casualty in VF and shock delivered within 3 minutes the survival rate it 74%! a big difference

I know it's probably a bit contrary.... but what is the likelihood of your employer being found to be at fault for not having an AED after an employee dies of a heart attack, remote to nil, remember SFARP..... Just playing devils Advocate....

That actually is what I was thinking of. I thought the chance would be low (at the moment), BUT - what if most other workplaces of the same size DID have them? That is to say, if an AED is the norm in other offices with more than (say) 20 employees, then it becomes almost impossible to argue that it's not reasonably practicable to have an AED. That is to say, the 'everyone else has one...' argument might actually be convincing for something that has a SFARP requirement, if it is actually true. I would find it very difficult to argue it's not reasonably practical to have an AED in a workplace with 120 employees, if 90% of workplaces of similar size and type did have an AED. That was my train of thought that led to the feeling that information about what everyone else does is actually of more use in the decision than a risk assessment that gives me a figure like I can expect a cardiac arrest in that workplace once every 35 years on average (which is about what I came up with, I think, with some big assumptions).

quote=Ken Slack]I know it's probably a bit contrary.... but what is the likelihood of your employer being found to be at fault for not having an AED after an employee dies of a heart attack, remote to nil, remember SFARP..... Just playing devils Advocate....

I can see the benefit of having AEDs in places where thousands of people congregate - shopping centres, football grounds etc. At best this is a public service, but really it's PR because people expect to see them around these days. My wife is a theatre nurse and uses similar equipment regularly, from my recollection of her student days there are at least half a dozen "types" of heart attack, only in one or two cases, where the heart has gone into fibrillation, will a DEfibrillator work. So, what are the chances of someone having a heart attack on your premises? (How many have occurred in the past?) If it happens, what are the chances of it being the "right" type of heart attack? I would argue starting from my first question the odds are slim and get slimmer. The law requires us to consider SIGNIFICANT risk. This is not significant in most workplaces. It is not reasonable to spend hundreds of pounds on the provision of the equipment and the ongoing costs of training people to use it. This also raises the wider issue of the perception that our profession places undue burdens on business. Let's accept the (moot) point that work activity does not directly cause heart attacks (putting stress to one side). Most of us are H&S professionals, responsible for helping our employers comply with the provisions imposed by the Health and Safety at Work Act. We should be advising on what the law requires not what people expect or think is a good idea. By all means highlight best practice, but be clear what is the minimum required by the law. In these stringent times we are in danger of playing into the hands of those who would do away with all safety legislation. What next? Break glass for insulin. Emergency ventolin dispensers. Stop gold-plating!

I work across multiple sites and have AEDs at all of them. The reasons after risk assessment: 1. At one site an employee has a heart defect which could me they collapse from a heart attack without warning. All staff (first aiders) have been trained in using the AED. 2. At another site an employee whilst clocking in fell ill and was rushed to hospital in a colleagues car - subsequently they died from a heart attack. My sites are split over towns (hospital pretty close by) and rural areas. We have had the air ambulance pick up injured persons from a rural site due to the time it takes for an ambulance to drive to the site - identified through risk assessment hence the AED. Rich

Most H&S professionals quote that there are 3 reasons why we have H&S polices and procedures :- i) Legal. The law tells us we must. ii) Moral. We don't like seeing others getting hurt. iii) Good business sense. If we get it wrong we will get fined and customers will be put off dealing with a supplier with a poor reputation. Installing defibrillators for me comes under the moral reason. The previous organisation I worked in already had them installed when I joined. They installed them after an employee died of a heaart attack on site. The incident was witnessed by a number of people and sevral first aiders went to his aid. It had an impact on all those involved. So its not just about potentially saving a life, its the impact on those who are either involved or witness it as well.

I have been struggling with not replying to this since it was posted...I am quite surprised at some members of the forum who stick to what the legislation says and not what is the right thing to do..aren't we all in the business of saving lives...rant over.. Firstly AED in a Hospital environment show little or no impact on saving a life when trained cardiac staff are on hand...When AED was first introduced by the American Heart Association thier study was in pre-hospital environment. http://www.newsytype.com/13558-aed-defibrillator/ Rural areas and areas of public access will benefit the most, although just because you have an ambulance station next door doesn't necessarily mean you will get a quicker response.. http://www.bhf.org.uk/he...ills/defibrillators.aspx If there is general enthusiasm for it within your organisation why not start a company HearStart scheme...I run a community scheme and it works... http://www.bhf.org.uk/he...training/heartstart.aspx

Not sure of your medical qualifications, yes normally if you have got to the stage of having a cardiac arrest there is a lot more wrong with you than just that...not sure who is talking about TV shows? We are talking about the pre-hospital environment and by lay/first aiders. I have had 3 calls in the last 2 months - 2 survived 1 didn't... 2 because we were on scene in less than 3 mins...Just becuase a statistic somewhere says recovery is low due to other complications, shouldn't stop people putting public access or workplace AED in place due. Education is key and if someone stands there and looks at someone there chances of survival are virtually nil....

We have them in my workplace (four public sector offices across the UK). The ones we have are certainly usable by untrained people - just get one of the suppliers to come in and demo a unit if you're in any doubt about that. BUT, we have a number of trained users in each site, because until you've been trained, you wouldn't necessarily have the confidence to know that an untrained person could use them...hope that makes sense? Also the AED training includes a CPR refresher, and you can't have too much of that. Hope this helps the OP's straw poll - I know I haven't contributed much to the discussion about whether it's the right thing to do but I think I made my opinion on that pretty clear in another thread!

You just beat me to it!!!!! Extract from Resus council website re untrained use. While it is highly desirable that those who may be called upon to use an AED should be trained in their use, and keep their skills up to date, circumstances can dictate that no trained operator (or a trained operator whose certificate of training has expired) is present at the site of an emergency. Under these circumstances no inhibitions should be placed on any person willing to use an AED. It is the view of the Resuscitation Council (UK) that the use of AEDs should NOT be restricted to trained personnel. Furthermore, the Resuscitation Council (UK) considers that it is inappropriate to display notices to the effect that only trained personnel should use the devices, or to restrict their use in other ways. Such restrictions are against the interests of victims of cardiac arrest, and discourage the greater use of AEDs by members of the public who may be able to preserve life and assist victims of cardiac arrest. This confirms similar advice from the British Heart Foundation. The principles contained in this statement are aimed primarily at lay persons, first aiders and those who do not work as health care professionals. In health care environments where an AED is available, it is important that all staff who may be called on to use it are trained and that their qualifications are kept up to date. The status of training is a subject that should be reviewed during the annual appraisal process.

TSC, Your very lucky having a forward thinking employer! I work with the BHF and Ambulance service trying to strategically place as many AED's as possible,and train as many people as possible, be that schoolchildren using the excellent heartstart scheme, or training the staff at the defib sites. Its generally very well received, and as you say one day it may be me!!!!! From a mental feedback point of view I've found from experience that having an AED and deploying it even if its not a good outcome can give better closure to the operator knowing that they did everything possible. When teaching FAW on behalf of the Ambulance service, we always teach that when shouting for help you ask for a defib. When assessing them I always ask if they have one in their place of work. Sadly its less than 20% that actually say yes. So knowing that you need one and not having one available may have a negative effect on the mental side of things. The BHF sometimes have funding available to place AED's so its always worth approaching them. Phil