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Hatchard41429  
#1 Posted : 29 March 2012 14:02:45(UTC)
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Hatchard41429

Can you do electrical work in factory if not an electrician
PH2  
#2 Posted : 29 March 2012 14:09:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PH2

More information required.
Hatchard41429  
#3 Posted : 29 March 2012 14:45:28(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Hatchard41429

Guy has been working as electrician in factory for over 20 years with no qualifications he does all types of electrical work is this legal the hse site just says you have to be competent but who decides his competence?
KAJ Safe  
#4 Posted : 29 March 2012 15:06:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
KAJ Safe

It would have the potential for being on thin ice.
It could be similar to a driver not having a licence but being shown what to do 20 years ago.
For example, competence in H&S can be identified through Nebosh and membership of IOSH.
How would you prove he is competent apart from being time served - where did he get his training from and who is to say that he hasn't been shown some bad habits or something that is incorrect.

We wouldn't allow it within the company I work in .
Zimmy  
#5 Posted : 29 March 2012 18:26:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

Quick reply
NO!
David Bannister  
#6 Posted : 29 March 2012 18:54:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

He's been working as an electrician for over 20 years. That probably entitles him to call himself an electrician. I don't believe therer are any legal barriers to using the title, any more than there are to us calling ourselves H&S practitioners.

Is there any evidence that he is not competent? Does he know his limitations? Is the employer happy with the work?

How many electricians are ever asked to prove competency or produce evidence of qualifications?

That said, I too would be cautious and inquisitive as a consultant providing H&S support and this situation arose.
MAT  
#7 Posted : 29 March 2012 20:31:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
MAT

Hi All,

My understanding is that competence would be defined as a mixture of experience and formal qualifications.

I was recently at. CIWM/Zero waste Scotland event where there was a Speaker from the HSE who looks after the Waste Industry. Part of her talk she indicated in the coming year that they would be looking at competence of Workers, who trained them? Was that person trained to train etc?

Happy to admit I've only just passed NGC.

Mick C  
#8 Posted : 30 March 2012 09:08:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mick C

I would say most definitely not. Is this guy using the correct sized cables? The correct circuit protection? Are the circuits adequately earthed? And how many test certificates has he produced?.
Where would your company stand in the event of an electrical fire or someone receiving an electric shock? I would doubt your company is insured for this guys work.

As a previous post states you are on thin ice.

I would suggest you contact the NICEIC and sort out some training most urgently.
sean  
#9 Posted : 30 March 2012 09:19:13(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

In my previous life as a lift engineer I was not classed as an electrician but did all the electrical work required when installing, repairing or modernising a lift, I started as a fitters mate and learnt the trade through many years of working on the job, I eventually became a fitter after completing some modules with the EITB but never studied to become an electrician. I am able to complete most work that an electrician can do with ease so can see no difference in the description of the worker in a factory to my own circumstances and many hundreds of other workers doing various trades around the country
Lucy D  
#10 Posted : 30 March 2012 09:58:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Lucy D

Surely the answer depends on the type of electrical work being done? A risk assessment should help the analysis process.
I would certainly want to be sure I had made the right decision (and it was documented) if I was the electrical duty holder for the site!
Zimmy  
#11 Posted : 30 March 2012 16:30:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

Lucy

If he/she is not qualified to install, test and certify the work then the answer is NO!

Quals needed include...17th wiring regs, electrical quals and C&G 2391 for a start. C&G 2400 if design work involved

I'm not going to go any further here as I keep getting kicked off. Please trust me on this one or hands will be burnt.

All too often things are said her re electrical work and I and one or two others are well, lets say the answer is 'blowing in the wind'

By all means get in contact if you like but Paul be on here soon and he'll give you and other insight :-)

Rob
Zimmy  
#12 Posted : 30 March 2012 16:32:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

Oh to read first print later...
paul.skyrme  
#13 Posted : 30 March 2012 19:24:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Hatchard,
Competence is a blend of training, qualifications and experience.
If the guy has no qualifications then he cannot be competent.
Just because he has been doing the job, how does one know it is being done correctly.
Depending upon the type of work being done there is a lot more to electrical systems than may seem obvious.
Is he designing and installing circuits into the fixed wiring of the building?
If he is, does he know correctly, how to calculate cable sizes and apply the correction factors required to correlate circuit protective devices with cables and loads in the installed condition?
If he does not, then he is not competent.
Does he have access to, and competence in use of the correct test equipment to verify new circuits or modifications within the building wiring in accordance with BS7671?
Is he competent in completion of BS7671 certificates for installations or modifications to the fixed wiring in the premises?
If he is working on machinery does he have a good knowledge and understanding of control principles?
Is he familiar with the low voltage & machinery directives?
Is he competent in BS EN 60204-1?

What does your insurer require?
I have a client with a fully trained and competent electrician on the payroll. He does hold 16th & 2391-10. (He trained prior to the 17th)
The client insurer has required an NICEIC or ECA Approved Contractor to undertake the PIR (EICR) on the premises.
Their risk, their rules.
An easy question, ask him about earth fault loop impedance and its importance within the fixed installation.
If he cannot answer immediately and explain what this is to you in layman's terms so that you can understand it, then he is not competent to undertake modifications to the fixed wiring, end of story.


sean,
I am going to respond to your post very carefully.
You have made a few statements there with regard to your personal situation that I feel can only be responded to by relating back to your personal situation. However, this is not a personal attack, but is a response to your statements in the post only.

In my opinion, and that of quite a few other learned colleagues in many spheres, organisations and locations:
1. You were not an engineer. How can you justify this title?
2. You were not, and are not an electrician. Again how can you justify calling yourself an electrician without having undertaken formal training?
At best you were a "wire man" or "electrical installer" installing others designs when it comes to the electrical side of things.
Do you fully understand how to test these designs and installations to ensure that they function correctly and comply with all relevant standards and legislation?
If you did why did you not undertake the qualifications?
I would bet that there are large gaps in your technical knowledge that should not be there if you were a competent electrician.
How do you "know" that you were doing this work correctly?
Who was supervising you and checking your work?
Were you self taught?

You "may" have felt that you had been competent in your own sphere, however, I cannot see how having no formal qualifications fits the definition of electrical competence as accepted in the industry, and published in many "quasi legal" documents?


Lucy D,
Yes an RA would be useful, however, this must be undertaken by a person competent to do so.
Not quite so easy as has been shown on here in the last few days.


Question to all.

IF you are sitting in your home or office, and there is no gas present in the premises, what is the biggest threat to your life?
(Discounting those working in war zones, or COMAH premises! ;)...
Canopener  
#14 Posted : 30 March 2012 20:51:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Oh heck, it's Friday and April the first tomorrow.

So, is the answer - suffocation?

Zimmy  
#15 Posted : 31 March 2012 17:20:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

Like I said (and Paul is right in what he says) the answer to the question is No! Nice one Paul, well said.
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