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RayRapp  
#1 Posted : 01 April 2012 21:53:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

On April 6th the Act will have been in force for four years. During this period there has only been one (successful) prosecution - Cotswold Geotechnical Holdings, a 'one-man band' company who could have been successfully prosecuted under the former common law corporate manslaughter. Meanwhile, during this four your period there have been nearly one thousand workplace fatalities, according to the HSE most of these were avoidable. The question begs - why have there not been more prosecutions?
boblewis  
#2 Posted : 01 April 2012 22:28:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Ray Could the previous government have been grandstanding??? Shock Horror!!!!! Bob
Norfolkboy  
#3 Posted : 02 April 2012 09:01:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Norfolkboy

Ray , Enforcement costs money. You can have the best laws in the world , but if you do not give the enforcing authorities the resources to do the job - nothing will happen. A sign of the times I am afraid. Simon
DavidMcGuire  
#4 Posted : 02 April 2012 09:17:09(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DavidMcGuire

Just because there has been a fatality at work, does not automatically result in a prosecution of corporate manslaughter/ homicide. For the CPS to bring a case of corporate manslaughter / homicide, they have to show that there was a gross breach of duty care by the body corporate owed to the deceased, which was the causal link and lead directly to the fatality. They also, have to consider the two test of whether: 1. There is enough evidence to provide a realistic prospect of successful conviction; 2.A prosecution is in the public interest. The offence of corporate manslaughter / homicide is on the body corporate, not individuals, if however, it became clear during proceedings etc that an individual manager was responsible for the fatality, then they would subsequently be prosecuted under S 36. The cause of fatalities at work could have various of reasons, which may have been preventable, such as contributory negligence, a car crash, heart attack, etc etc
A Kurdziel  
#5 Posted : 02 April 2012 10:32:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Essentially for a successful prosecution under the Corporate Manslaughter Act, the prosecution have to prove that the employer was really rubbish. Unfortunately until there has been a prosecution they don’t how rubbish really rubbish is. Once they have had a successful prosecution then they will have precedent, so the CPS is a bit wary that they get it right first time.
RayRapp  
#6 Posted : 02 April 2012 11:08:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

A Kurdziel, the CPS has had one successful case, albeit all the boxes had been ticked with Cotswold Geotechnics. Does the lack of prosecutions show that the CPS have neither the will or the tool to prosecute companies? We know the CMA is a complex and arguably poorly drafted piece of legislation. I find it difficult to believe there are not suitable cases where there have been significant management failings. In fact, I recall reading in SHP about a (mining) company who have had several individual fatalities over the last few years, a contender if there ever was one.
walker  
#7 Posted : 02 April 2012 12:32:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

I sometimes wonder why the CPS tail wags the legasitive dog. And how much political meddling is involved.
RayRapp  
#8 Posted : 03 April 2012 10:53:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Considering the resources which went into drafting and passing the Act, it appears to be a shameful waste of time and money! Back in 2007/08 everyone one was discussing the Bill and Act, now a few years later very few can even bother to make a comment.
A Kurdziel  
#9 Posted : 03 April 2012 11:19:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I am suprised that the CPS is taking so long. I was informed by a number of lawyers specialising in such matters that the CPS had a number of cases in the pipe line which were the sort of cases for which the legislation was intended, ie “Amounts to a gross breach of a relevant duty of care owed by the organisation to the deceased... in which its activities are managed or organised by its senior management” rather than any individual. The Geotechnics cases was very odd in that the company was a one man band and it could have been prosecuted under the old common law as there was obviously one controlling mind who failed in their duty. The delay in instigating a prosecution leads one to suspect either a conspiracy- the new government does not like the idea of companies being held accountable or more likely cock-up- the CPS don’t regard this as a priority, and cannot be bothered to do the leg work. Perhaps it’s time a friendly MP asked a question in parliament?
walker  
#10 Posted : 03 April 2012 14:34:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

A Kurdziel wrote:
. Perhaps it’s time a friendly MP asked a question in parliament?
do you mean something like this: http://www.iosh.co.uk/ne...?i=N0008341332316197994A
RayRapp  
#11 Posted : 03 April 2012 14:57:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Walker, it's a start, even if the facts are wrong...two companies prosecuted, I only know of one, Cotswold Geotechncis - who was the other? Mr Grieve replied: "I don't know of any evidence to suggest that the Crown Prosecution Service are not correctly applying their own approach to when corporate manslaughter is appropriate." Perhaps it would have been more useful and proactive to ask the DPP to comment!
A Kurdziel  
#12 Posted : 03 April 2012 15:14:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

So great minds think alike-idiots seldom differ! Not much of an answer.
walker  
#13 Posted : 03 April 2012 15:44:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

Did anyone else notice the Attorney General says he was a H&S professional?
RayRapp  
#14 Posted : 03 April 2012 15:53:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Yes, I noticed it. Just checked out his bio and no mention of anything health and safety...the plot thickens.
chris121  
#15 Posted : 03 April 2012 15:58:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
chris121

Charges have been brought against Lion Steel, a medium sized manufacturing business, but I am unsure as to where the case is at present.
walker  
#16 Posted : 03 April 2012 16:00:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

RayRapp wrote:
Yes, I noticed it. Just checked out his bio and no mention of anything health and safety...the plot thickens.
Surely a member of HM Government would not tell lies
David Bannister  
#17 Posted : 03 April 2012 16:08:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

It must be that he is ashamed to be identified as a demonic H&S practitioner in this "Salem-like" environment we find ourselves in, courtesy of HMG.
barnaby  
#18 Posted : 03 April 2012 16:24:59(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

RayRapp wrote:
Yes, I noticed it. Just checked out his bio and no mention of anything health and safety...the plot thickens.
It's probably because he practised as a health and safety law barrister.
walker  
#19 Posted : 03 April 2012 16:29:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

barnaby wrote:
RayRapp wrote:
Yes, I noticed it. Just checked out his bio and no mention of anything health and safety...the plot thickens.
It's probably because he practised as a health and safety law barrister.
That don't make him a Health and Safety Practitioner - of course his words might have been misreported
barnaby  
#20 Posted : 03 April 2012 16:48:48(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

walker wrote:
barnaby wrote:
RayRapp wrote:
Yes, I noticed it. Just checked out his bio and no mention of anything health and safety...the plot thickens.
It's probably because he practised as a health and safety law barrister.
That don't make him a Health and Safety Practitioner - of course his words might have been misreported
I've not seen it used in that context before, but I guess he considered himself a practitioner in heath and safety law.
RayRapp  
#21 Posted : 03 April 2012 16:57:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I've got a Masters in H,S&E Law with Salford Law School, but it does not make me a Lawyer!
barnaby  
#22 Posted : 03 April 2012 17:23:01(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

RayRapp wrote:
I've got a Masters in H,S&E Law with Salford Law School, but it does not make me a Lawyer!
Our Dom's Polytechnic Diploma apparently made him one! You must be doing something wrong.
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