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jarsmith83  
#1 Posted : 10 April 2012 08:54:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

Good morning people For my own sanity, can I ask the proffessional opinion of others on this "incident" Maintenance work in privitaly owned multiple accomadation that homes people. Place of work is considered inside the property and not the communal area. Two operatives removal items, of a managable size i.e. a small box), from the property. Outside the property is a lift our stairs. One operative takes the stairs the other takes the lift. By the time the lift gets to the bottom, a person yelping is heard from round the corner and the person who has taken the stairs has tripped, not on the stairs, but a distance away, on the floor area below. It is later found out that the operative has tripped on his own feet! Back rtround of the Risk Assessment. The Risk Assessment has been compiled by managment prior to the task taking place and is of the generic nature. It states all the usal manual handling jargon TILE etc.. It is signed prior to the task starting but, not at the begining of the task infact, it is sighend some time before with a bunch of other Risk Assessments which are generic for other tasks. 1) Would you say this is RIDDOR reportable 2) What is your reasoning for this I am trying to write this without coming across biased either way. This is after a disagreement with management. Many thanks inn advance for all answers.
stuie  
#2 Posted : 10 April 2012 09:16:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stuie

Trips are not RIDDOR reportable unless there is a resulting injury that meets the criteria - eg broken arm
safetyamateur  
#3 Posted : 10 April 2012 09:29:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
safetyamateur

e.g. broken arm or over-three/seven day injury.... Key thing is the 'in connection with work' dimension. If it wasn't in connection with the work then it's not reportable. I don't see any downside from reporting it, but if you've investigated and are satisfied it's not reportable, fine.
decimomal  
#4 Posted : 10 April 2012 09:30:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
decimomal

stuie wrote:
Trips are not RIDDOR reportable unless there is a resulting injury that meets the criteria - eg broken arm
Not strictly true as RIDDOR also includes absence from work or unable to carry out their full range of duties for over 7 days due to a workplace injury. The original poster has not said whether there was an injury, but if we assume that there was and that the injured party was an employee of somebody as oppossed to being self employed, then it appears that this is reportable. Unfortunately we are short of relevent details to be able to comment further.
jarsmith83  
#5 Posted : 10 April 2012 09:38:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

OK, so I have left part on whether this is an over 3 day/7day or not out. To add to the original description of the incident. The operative was off from work as a result of this for over 3 days (before 7 days came into force). What si your thoughts now??
jarsmith83  
#6 Posted : 10 April 2012 09:40:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

decimomal wrote:
stuie wrote:
Trips are not RIDDOR reportable unless there is a resulting injury that meets the criteria - eg broken arm
Not strictly true as RIDDOR also includes absence from work or unable to carry out their full range of duties for over 7 days due to a workplace injury. The original poster has not said whether there was an injury, but if we assume that there was and that the injured party was an employee of somebody as oppossed to being self employed, then it appears that this is reportable. Unfortunately we are short of relevent details to be able to comment further.
There was swelling and bruising to the operatogves ankle as a result. Operative was sent to Doctors but, of course, can slef medicate for first week.
jarsmith83  
#7 Posted : 10 April 2012 09:43:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

safetyamateur wrote:
e.g. broken arm or over-three/seven day injury.... Key thing is the 'in connection with work' dimension. If it wasn't in connection with the work then it's not reportable. I don't see any downside from reporting it, but if you've investigated and are satisfied it's not reportable, fine.
Safetyamatuer You are definately vearing in the areas of discussion I am in with managment currently. The operative was not in place of work but, was carrying an item from place of work to van for disposal therefore, carrying out a work duty? I am just trying to steer this dicsussion in the right direction to get true thoughts. Thanks for the replies so far.
jarsmith83  
#8 Posted : 10 April 2012 09:45:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

Apologies for grammatical errors/spelling mistakes so far. I am currently multitasking and have only just seen the atrocious spelling etc..
teh_boy  
#9 Posted : 10 April 2012 09:55:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

The operative was not in place of work but, was carrying an item from place of work to van for disposal therefore, carrying out a work duty? Thanks for the replies so far.
Reportable (No doubt in my mind)... Job Done - Crack on
Andrew W Walker  
#10 Posted : 10 April 2012 10:00:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Andrew W Walker

He was working- its reportable. IMHO Andy
kdrum  
#11 Posted : 10 April 2012 10:03:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
kdrum

Jarsmith as per the guidance consider 3 factors to decide if the accident was 'out of or in connection with work' These are The way in which the task was carried out. The equipment used to carry out that task. and The condition of the premises used to cary out the task. If the answer to any of the above is yes then IMHO this is reportable
jarsmith83  
#12 Posted : 10 April 2012 10:10:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

OK This is my thought process. It seems other people I am in discussion with have a diferemt thought process. they are claiming that everything that the employer could have done to prevent this incident has been done and that because the operative tripped on his own feet, and that an investigation has been carried out that confirms the 2 pre-mentioned points, its non reportable because the guy tripped on his own feet. My supsicion (typing this thinking rather sarcasticaly) is that they are doing this because its what they believe and not becasue of the AFR which is presented to the CEO of the company. Thoughts?? I am now being asked, I am CMIOSH, to attend a Accident investigation course by the guy who believes they are correct with the non reporting, so he can correct me on what is reportable in these circumstances and what is not! I feel my proffesional integrity is being undermined and I do not feel comfortable with this practice. I am not really sure of what direction to take now.
teh_boy  
#13 Posted : 10 April 2012 10:25:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

jarsmith83 wrote:
OK This is my thought process. It seems other people I am in discussion with have a diferemt thought process. they are claiming that everything that the employer could have done to prevent this incident has been done and that because the operative tripped on his own feet, and that an investigation has been carried out that confirms the 2 pre-mentioned points, its non reportable because the guy tripped on his own feet. My supsicion (typing this thinking rather sarcasticaly) is that they are doing this because its what they believe and not becasue of the AFR which is presented to the CEO of the company. Thoughts?? I am now being asked, I am CMIOSH, to attend a Accident investigation course by the guy who believes they are correct with the non reporting, so he can correct me on what is reportable in these circumstances and what is not! I feel my proffesional integrity is being undermined and I do not feel comfortable with this practice. I am not really sure of what direction to take now.
Reporting is not linked to cause AT ALL - The facts are. They were carrying stuff to van = work They had an 'accident in connection with the above' They were off work for over three days REPORTABLE.. FULL STOP. http://www.hse.gov.uk/ri...r/what-must-i-report.htm
teh_boy  
#14 Posted : 10 April 2012 10:30:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

teh_boy wrote:
jarsmith83 wrote:
OK This is my thought process. It seems other people I am in discussion with have a diferemt thought process. they are claiming that everything that the employer could have done to prevent this incident has been done and that because the operative tripped on his own feet, and that an investigation has been carried out that confirms the 2 pre-mentioned points, its non reportable because the guy tripped on his own feet. My supsicion (typing this thinking rather sarcasticaly) is that they are doing this because its what they believe and not becasue of the AFR which is presented to the CEO of the company. Thoughts?? I am now being asked, I am CMIOSH, to attend a Accident investigation course by the guy who believes they are correct with the non reporting, so he can correct me on what is reportable in these circumstances and what is not! I feel my proffesional integrity is being undermined and I do not feel comfortable with this practice. I am not really sure of what direction to take now.
Reporting is not linked to cause AT ALL - The facts are. They were carrying stuff to van = work They had an 'accident in connection with the above' They were off work for over three days REPORTABLE.. FULL STOP. http://www.hse.gov.uk/ri...r/what-must-i-report.htm
P.S. in the past I have been asked not to report things that clearly are - I ensured that my recommendation to report was recorded and I copied this to our insurers and MD. The joyful thing was this came back to bite them when the claim form arrived, as the claim requested a RIDDOR report :)
jarsmith83  
#15 Posted : 10 April 2012 11:14:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

teh_boy wrote:
teh_boy wrote:
jarsmith83 wrote:
OK This is my thought process. It seems other people I am in discussion with have a diferemt thought process. they are claiming that everything that the employer could have done to prevent this incident has been done and that because the operative tripped on his own feet, and that an investigation has been carried out that confirms the 2 pre-mentioned points, its non reportable because the guy tripped on his own feet. My supsicion (typing this thinking rather sarcasticaly) is that they are doing this because its what they believe and not becasue of the AFR which is presented to the CEO of the company. Thoughts?? I am now being asked, I am CMIOSH, to attend a Accident investigation course by the guy who believes they are correct with the non reporting, so he can correct me on what is reportable in these circumstances and what is not! I feel my proffesional integrity is being undermined and I do not feel comfortable with this practice. I am not really sure of what direction to take now.
Reporting is not linked to cause AT ALL - The facts are. They were carrying stuff to van = work They had an 'accident in connection with the above' They were off work for over three days REPORTABLE.. FULL STOP. http://www.hse.gov.uk/ri...r/what-must-i-report.htm
P.S. in the past I have been asked not to report things that clearly are - I ensured that my recommendation to report was recorded and I copied this to our insurers and MD. The joyful thing was this came back to bite them when the claim form arrived, as the claim requested a RIDDOR report :)
Good advice in which I think I will have to use in my circumstances. Thank you all.
DP  
#16 Posted : 10 April 2012 11:35:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
DP

Notifiable in this case.
NLivesey  
#17 Posted : 10 April 2012 13:10:38(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NLivesey

I've read this a few times now and although my gut says it's reportable there's still an something in my head that says 'maybe not'. Teh Boy's hit the nail on the head overall (if IP was carrying a box then work activity and reportable) and I'd say that the questioning has definitely come as the result of the impact on the AFR. Question is if the IP was just walking from a-b without carrying anything would it still be reportable? Again, it could be argued either way. To my mind the key thing would be what caused him to fall over his own feet, inadequate footwear? (reportable); lack of attention? (non-reportable?); couldn't see where he was walking due to carrying item (reportable). Overall the call should be made when the severity of injury becomes apparent but there will be times when the investigation will determine if the cause was result of a work activity or not. The other thing to bear in mind is that any argument may be indicative of the safety culture of an organisation. So if there's a driver to ignore the circumstances because it'll affect safety performance KPI's then there's a bigger issue at hand.
Rafique  
#18 Posted : 10 April 2012 13:32:14(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Rafique

Good afternoon, I am Rafique Working as a Safety officer in Dubai. i would like to share one incident which happend at my site. A manlift( MEWP UPRIGHT AB 38 SERIES) tilted and still investigation is going on. It happend on saturday 1 of april. While the operator lifting the basket to reach their target, approximately at 7 mtr of height, the operator feels the basket coming down. Man lift partially toppled and the basket sat on electrical panel underneath of bucket of manlift. thank god no one was injured And the incident immediate informed to the HSE dept. As we investigated the scenario says it was because of because of over reaching or boom was extended out of range.
Lawlee45239  
#19 Posted : 10 April 2012 13:58:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Lawlee45239

jarsmith83 wrote:
Good morning people For my own sanity, can I ask the proffessional opinion of others on this "incident" Maintenance work in privitaly owned multiple accomadation that homes people. Place of work is considered inside the property and not the communal area. Two operatives removal items, of a managable size i.e. a small box), from the property. Outside the property is a lift our stairs. One operative takes the stairs the other takes the lift. By the time the lift gets to the bottom, a person yelping is heard from round the corner and the person who has taken the stairs has tripped, not on the stairs, but a distance away, on the floor area below. It is later found out that the operative has tripped on his own feet! Back rtround of the Risk Assessment. The Risk Assessment has been compiled by managment prior to the task taking place and is of the generic nature. It states all the usal manual handling jargon TILE etc.. It is signed prior to the task starting but, not at the begining of the task infact, it is sighend some time before with a bunch of other Risk Assessments which are generic for other tasks. 1) Would you say this is RIDDOR reportable 2) What is your reasoning for this I am trying to write this without coming across biased either way. This is after a disagreement with management. Many thanks inn advance for all answers.
reportable, its work related.
philb  
#20 Posted : 11 April 2012 10:46:07(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
philb

Apologies if this hijacks the original thread - RIDDOR seems to raise more queries and differing opinions than anything else. The scenario is a mobile employee is called out, out of hours - on a sunday morning - for just a few hours and then returns to his home. As he is getting out of his company van at his home address he looses his balance and falls injuring his shoulder. What are the opinions on the forum - is this "arising out of or in connection with work" - he wouldnt have been getting out of the van if it had not been for work but are any of the key factors to consider in "arising out of or in connection with work" satisfied ? If so which? Discuss and thanks in advance
decimomal  
#21 Posted : 11 April 2012 11:50:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
decimomal

philb wrote:
Apologies if this hijacks the original thread - RIDDOR seems to raise more queries and differing opinions than anything else. The scenario is a mobile employee is called out, out of hours - on a sunday morning - for just a few hours and then returns to his home. As he is getting out of his company van at his home address he looses his balance and falls injuring his shoulder. What are the opinions on the forum - is this "arising out of or in connection with work" - he wouldnt have been getting out of the van if it had not been for work but are any of the key factors to consider in "arising out of or in connection with work" satisfied ? If so which? In my view not reportable as not in connection with work
philb  
#22 Posted : 11 April 2012 12:07:06(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
philb

Thanks for your reply
SW  
#23 Posted : 11 April 2012 12:15:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SW

I would say not reportable - where do you draw the line - trip over step as he walks into his house? Reportable? Does back in taking off work boots - reportable? On the other hand if he slipped as he got into the car on way to call out..........................!!!
walker  
#24 Posted : 11 April 2012 12:27:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

SW wrote:
I would say not reportable - where do you draw the line - trip over step as he walks into his house? Reportable? Does back in taking off work boots - reportable? On the other hand if he slipped as he got into the car on way to call out..........................!!!
maybe you need to review your understanding of RIDDOR The cause is irrelivant Teh boy had it at #13
philb  
#25 Posted : 11 April 2012 13:23:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
philb

Thanks to those who replied to my post (No 20) as usual difering views. 2 nays and one yea. My original question posed if this is "arising out of or in connection with work" which of the 3 key factors to define this are met? Again thanks in anticipation
jarsmith83  
#26 Posted : 11 April 2012 13:33:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

philb wrote:
Apologies if this hijacks the original thread - RIDDOR seems to raise more queries and differing opinions than anything else. The scenario is a mobile employee is called out, out of hours - on a sunday morning - for just a few hours and then returns to his home. As he is getting out of his company van at his home address he looses his balance and falls injuring his shoulder. What are the opinions on the forum - is this "arising out of or in connection with work" - he wouldnt have been getting out of the van if it had not been for work but are any of the key factors to consider in "arising out of or in connection with work" satisfied ? If so which? Discuss and thanks in advance
See for this instance, which is very relevant for the case I have described, I would say it is not reportable. The van is considered a place of work. If the operative has arrived at his home address and has then left the va then surely he has left his place of work. The prior comments have been helpful and have have forced difference of opinions regarding the original incident I outlined. What was more interesting was the comment which stated that if the operative had injured himslef just from not paying attention then its not RIDDOR reportable? I would say that the health and safety looks at human behaviour and its irrelavant if he was paying attention or not, the fact is a catagory of accident/incident is human error. Also the opeartive was carrying an object that was part of the work process. Lastly the operative was carrying out duties that form part of his normal work duties. I have let the cat of of the bag now on my opinion on the original outlined incident. The reason I was asking opinions of others was to gaugue the thought process of others. In my opinion, I cannot see why others do not want to report incident. Instead, why do companies not use these reported incidents as leavers to move the bussiness in the right ditrection of putting into place control measures that are effective in stopping such instances re-occuring? I know its difficult to put control measures in effect to stop the original incident outlined in this thread from occuring but, some of the replies, do show the mentality this industry has taken in recent years and the importance of seeming like you "doing well on the safety front".
jarsmith83  
#27 Posted : 11 April 2012 13:35:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

Apologies for the grammatical errors through speed typing lol.
SW  
#28 Posted : 11 April 2012 17:18:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SW

Walker - I agree that the original post Incident should be reportable - and post 13. I just thought that the "Hijacked thread" Incident query wasn't reportable. With the amount of posts on RIDDOR and the conflicting advice from intelligent people on here I am not the only one that needs a better understanding it seems - or do the Regs need to be clearer?
DP  
#29 Posted : 11 April 2012 18:29:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
DP

The phrase "arising out of or in connection with work" is not a stand alone reference for you to make judgement on – there are other factors involved and L73 provides good examples for you to use to enable you to make these judgements. If you use it on its own then it completely understandable why you will always revert to yes / report if the incident takes place in work – that’s is completely logical – but by considering all factors in accidents then using RIDDOR as a guide you may change your mind. We have loads of RIDDOR threads on here hear and I know some folk get frustrated in the amount and frequent discussions but lets remember every single accident in unique to that particular set of circumstances and requires a different view every time. Hence the amount threads. A sound accident investigation should always lead you to the answer supported by the regs
SW  
#30 Posted : 11 April 2012 18:37:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SW

Good reply DP and on one of the last posted RIDDOR queries I read on the forum I changed my viewpoint. We have a very thorough accident investigation procedure in place where I work and I have no hesitation in reporting "RIDDORS" - I have much more concern / pressure from the top brass unfortunately. SW
Canopener  
#31 Posted : 11 April 2012 22:03:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Yes RIDDOR does tend to generate any number of queries. I have quickly read through the thread and would on balance report. I often find some of the arguments against, both curious and spurious! However, I suggest that 'cause' IS relevant (blame on the other hand is another matter) and in fact the guidance gives examples where different 'causes' give rise to injuries, some of which are reportable and others that aren't. IF the injury doesn't arise from or in connection with work then it isn't reportable. The purpose of the regs is among other things, for the HSE to model work related (caused) injury and ill health; it is not generally concerned with non work related causal factors. In short, injuries arising from 'work related' 'causes' are reportable, injuries arising from non 'work related' 'causes' aren't.
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