Those of us who take the attitude that we exist to get the job done safely have a problem with credibility because of some ill advised and probably ill trained or equipped people who are afraid to let anything happen. I may be wrong, but quite a fair proportion of the "You can't do that" brigade seem to work in local government. At the end of the day how will businesses survive if the job is stopped?

DavidFS, whilst I empathise with your comments with regards to the "You can't do that" brigade, it is not confined to just local government. I have worked in projects for the last few years and it is no different in that environment either.

Tin hat and flack jacket on... Right! Take a look at the postings on this forum. How many are about how do I comply with this particular regulation or that paragraph or sub-section? How many are about how do I ensure that the workforce do not come to harm? I agree with previous postings. Sometimes we lose sight of the real aim, namely to ensure that those who come to work go home in the evening at least as healthy as when they came. So is it any wonder that some see the health and safety practitioner in a certain light? Chris

Good question Ray! I don't think the lack of respect is indicative of poor attitudes and unsafe behaviours in the population at large. I do think it's indicative of the fact that people will believe anything they read or hear in the media, regardless of whether it is the Daily Mail or the Jeremy Vine show (my Mum thinks he's great!) and thus they think all safety people are clipboard-wielding killjoys who roam the country looking for people who have the temerity to be enjoying themselves and then try to stop them. Most of us can't do much about the overall public perception unless we happen to own our own newspaper or radio station. We can however change their perception of us as individuals. As has been said here already, respect is earned not given. I have heard all the cracks about safety professionals and I never, ever let one go unchallenged. I have had the "safety isn't about stopping children playing conkers, it's about keeping people in one piece at work" discussion with friends, family, in the pub, with new clients, at parties, sat round a campfire in the African bush, in internet chatrooms (yes really!) and anywhere else the chance arises. You can't change the world. You can change your little bit of it.

Good question Ray. I believe that a good H&S professional earns respect in the way they carry out the job. Unfortunately in the media driven world we live in, many situations are highlighted as being "killed off" by the H&S jobsworth. Then when it is looked into it reveals that it is not a H&S issue at all but some risk averse official who has not carried out an assessment. Human nature being what it is, people will always try and circumvent the rules and I think that the good safety professional has a practical approach that is "can do." I for one confess that I could not quote you verbatim regulation sect ? sub para 2 line 3 etc. However, I do know where to find it and interpret it to practical use in the field. Unfortunately, in the litigious society we live in we as the professionals need to make our clients aware what is required first and foremost to keep the employees safe and by doing this ensuring our clients are protected from the "spurious" claims. Over the last 15 years I have seen a big change for the good within the construction sector in respect of H&S and the majority of workers do respect what we are trying to achieve.

As I suspected, some diverse opinions why the lack of credibility and respect has come about and the impact in our industry. Having given the matter much thought recently, I am of the opinion that although there is no objective evidence that a lack of respect impinges on safety, attitudes of those at the coal face is often very negative. The recent HSE blitz on small contractors in construction has shown very little improvement and I suggest this is anecdotal evidence and where the biggest problems lie. In my experience the main issue with OTT health and safety emanates from clients who impose conditions on contractors and even sometimes mandatory PPE. Many of these clients do not have experience of construction activities, yet their representatives insist on certain interventions even though they may be unrealistic. This practice is fed down the construction food chain, indeed many non-construction industries now adopt many of these OTT practices. Contractors roll over because they do not want to bite the hand which feeds them. Contractors have also implemented all sorts of initiatives in order to appease or seduce clients in an effort to win tenders etc. It is a vicious circle.

In my personal opinion and to mirror walkers comment on the " rules and regs" safety people . I believe a lot of safety professionals lose respect by trying to show their "expertise " more than using the expertise of the people they are dealing with. My view on a lot of safety application particularly in the field is that we should be using our knowledge AND MORE IMPORTANTLY the knowledge of the people we are trying to influence. This knowledge should complement each other , not try to out do each other like one of the parties has an inferiority complex.

Chris, I for one would be interested to learn how IOSH intend to deal with the issue. It will take more than a media Guru or some other PR exercise. Many of the problems are now so ingrained in industry that in order to win back some respect it will take the collective resolve of others such as the HSE, I'm not convinced they have the appetite for it.

We were doing a job on a prestige customer site last year - our engineer turned up in company attire, PPE, tool roll, paperwork etc. The other team on site were in trainers, T-shirts, grinding stainless steel with no protective eyeware etc etc. It's really, REALLY, not difficult. Mister Engineer/techician : who would you rather be associated with ? the Professionals or the Cowboys ? How would your family and friends rather picture you ? Critically, if you want to get another job tomorrow, who would your client rather be observing ? Health and Safety is just one ingredient of a state of mind - Quality & Professionalism You cannot - YOU CANNOT ! - do a proper Professional job without it. But its just tied in to surveying, estimating, planning, coordinating, reviewing and executing - along with a myriad of other things - all of which other exigencies we find perfectly acceptable - and proof of our ability to do the job better than the next man. Health and Safety - it's nothing Special. (and don't get me started on Prof Lofstedt having to chivvy support for his review of Risk - the other corner-stone to having a grown-up discussion around H & S.)

Thanks Nigel, as good response from you as well. Enough of this eulogising, perhaps we should start with CDM and Clients, as per the recent evaluation of the CDM Regs commissioned by the HSE. The reports notes that: CDM 2007 is still overly bureaucratic; tenders are about the lowest price and not competence (surprise, surprise); 'getting the work done' rather than the values expressed CDM of co-ordination and co-operation; contractors, designers and CDM-Cs are unwilling to challenge Clients demands; the proliferation of contractor competence schemes add little value and overly costly; contractual clauses are used in order to avoid CDM responsibilities. Not yet read the full report, but I have to say from the summary there are no great surprises and indeed, I have commented as much on these forums. I wonder what Judith will make of it and moreover, has she the resolve to do something about it? As I said in my previous post, IOSH, IIRSM, RoSPA et al, and the membership cannot do much without the input of the HSE.

Ray I think high risk systems safety rarely is rarely an issue with folk - process safety is well established and lends itself well to structured systems . The bit that doesn't fit into a process is the 'people bit' because you can't change human behaviour through process. If you could, we'd have a society of robots, devoid of anything that makes humans the diverse species they are. And I think it's the threat of having any human character 'kicked out' of them' that make people rebel whenever you try to force a safety structure into routine activities. People are not hardwired to be risk averse - it would be a pretty sterile environement if we were.

Thanks for the link Ray. Rather worrying that a Report which should be focussed on CDM application goes into so much detail about contractor assessment schemes when none are mandated by the Regulations?

Garfield We all work in different areas and our experiences will be different. I work at the sharp end of the business, construction, utilities, maintenance, etc. I have no doubt what those working at the coal face and project management think about mandatory PPE, long sleeves in summer, endless documents to review and sign off, jobsworths coming to site and talking crap...I could go on but I think you get the picture. Meanwhile, certain people and organisations are ignoring regulations and putting people at REAL risk!

Ray You've certainly got people interested! Like a lot of folks reading or contributing to this thread I have worked in industry all my life (fitter by trade) before going through the NEBOSH route to Chartered status, now into my 2nd decade as a senior safety practitioner. Little we, as a profession, can do about public views, but your last post hit the nail on the head regards the workforce, talk to them as a colleague, using language they understand, nothing is more annoying than someone trying to show me that they are cleverer than me by using big words! As safety professionals we should know what the law requires, what the risk assessment says and the measures needed, and what the management system is telling us, BUT, from experience, the guy/or gal at the coalface you mentioned has only two question, what do you want me to do today and how do I do it safely...KISS!

I believe that the profession suffers from over-emphasis on detail - 'technical' skills and knowledge - rather than 'soft' personal skills such as communication and marketing. The NEBOSH Certificate has to be a significant contributor to this, and although the Diploma may be broader, there is still an obsession with systems, methods and regulation. As a safety adviser the first task is to 'sell'. If no-one knows or understands what you have to offer, they will not listen or look. The second task is to 'coach' . . . maybe that's for another day and discussion.

Ray, Name me a profession or industry that hasn't got / had bad press or low public opinion generally: Builders, Police Officers, Fire Fighters, Religious Organisations, Solicitors, Surgeons, Plumbers, GPs, Rail Operators, Energy Providers etc. Everyone likes a good moan, everyone knows and can do better themselves! Human nature I'm afraid...and we're stuck with it (IMHO).

Hmmmmm..... You can get respect by doing the following: 1. Work in a sector where safety is critical - if not, pretend it is helpful. 2. Dont associate with people who read the Daily Wail. 3. The avoidance of trivial safety issues should be a strategic objective. 4. Let people take some risk themselves, refusing to step-in with the nanny state solution for them, falling-down can be a positive learning experience for some people. Personally I do worry about shop-floor employees who might be influenced by negative associations of H&S, and have weak supervision that fail to influence them positively (I know this is difficult at best).

SP00308 True, but that does not help or excuse some of the nonsense which goes on in the name of health and safety. I am not responsible for other professions, personally and professionally I believe it is important to have some respect from the workforce. When I see organisations, respected ones at that, ignoring regulations and putting people at risk, but at the same time introducing all manner meaningless interventions...it makes my blood boil. Worse still, is when other people who should know better, including h&s practitioners, sit back and let it happen without a whimper.

“but does this loss of respect equate to poor attitudes and unsafe behaviours”. It is quite interesting to read this topic late in its life. When I read Ray’s question my response was that a lack of respect cannot simply equate to poor attitudes and unsafe behaviours. However, many respondents have chosen to focus on the respect for practitioners, I wonder why? Surely the subject is H&S not the practitioner. Is it a pre-requisite that a practitioner is ‘respected? Is it simply a matter of respect or is it also a matter of trust? Is it trust in a practitioner that is important rather than respect? That is, to trust them to do the right things based on their skill, knowledge and expertise. If the practitioner isn’t respected does this inevitably mean poor attitudes etc? Conversely does the input of a respected practitioner always negate poor attitudes and behaviours? Of course not? Surely it is respect for the subject or the work that more significantly affects attitude and behaviour? Think how much respect many people have for traffic wardens. Is it the warden or the parking restrictions that irks them? If I park and deserve a ticket does my respect for the warden make any difference to my decision to park or to the issue of a ticket? No, it is my lack of respect for the law or a judgement that I will not get caught. On the other hand, if I trust the warden to apply some common sense in their judgement then I might actually be tempted to rely upon that trust and take a bit more of a risk and get back 10 minutes over time! Whoops is that poor behaviour coming through because I trust the warden ;-) So for me I think the current adverse publicity is just irksome for some H&S bods. Those who have a significantly altruistic or moral imperative to their H&S work are probably most affected. In reality you do not need to be loved in order to achieve; in fact it is just the opposite sometimes. I will admit it is more rewarding, although not necessarily easier, when you are also loved  The challenge for H&S in the 21st century is matching to rapidly changing business needs in the 21st century. If we do not listen to what business is saying, and act effectively, then we will simply get ignored and ridiculed even more. Just like the bearded, leather patched, pipe smoking, clip board carrying, p.p.e. laden safety officer was in the last quarter of the 20th century. He knew, without any doubt, that he had all the answers, didn’t he? (Although it now seems from some comments that a few have survived but maybe with I Pads, smart phones, jeans, trainers but no pipe) The world isn’t a perfect place and yet H&S seems to constantly demand that it must be so. That is the nub of the discontent in my opinion. Respect  P48

Pete Good point, the thread has become about individual h&s practitioners. To be fair I think that many have become indoctrinated by their organisation - they can't see the woods for trees. Privately of course many do despair at what they are expected to do in the name of h&s. The problem as I see it is that too many decisions are made in the boardroom by people who do not have the esoteric knowledge, are making those decisions for the wrong reasons and feel compelled to implement initiatives which their peers have done. - Emperor's new clothes again.