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Garfield Esq  
#1 Posted : 18 April 2012 10:17:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Garfield Esq

Ignorance abounds! I was asked a question earlier which quite frankly I did not know the answer to... "legally (not in principle) can the requirements of HS legislation be applied to School Children, in particular the Health and Safety (Display Screen Equipment) Regulations" Yes, I am aware that HSAWA is relevant to Schools in general, however can chidren be defined as 'users' legally and therefore subject to the regs. I should know this, just never been asked! G Off for a google...
decimomal  
#2 Posted : 18 April 2012 10:26:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
decimomal

Not sure that it can as the Regs are aimed at people who habitually use display screen equipment as a significant part of their normal work (i.e.employees). That being said, I would have thought that a responsible school would follow the spirit of the Regs and cover the basics of setting up a workstation and providing appropriate accessories to the students.
Ken Slack  
#3 Posted : 18 April 2012 10:26:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ken Slack

I can't imagine any schoolchildren sitting in front of a terminal for the full 8 hour period, so wouldn't term them as 'users' in the legal sense. However I imagine it would be prudent to carry out some kind of assessment.
Heather Collins  
#4 Posted : 18 April 2012 10:56:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Heather Collins

Pupils are not defined as users under the Regs. Workstations used solely by pupils aren't subject to the Regs. However it's obviously good practice to set up such stations properly and teach the children about this as part of any ICT course. I would certainly risk assess the ICT area with this in mind. Ken - you don't have to sit in front of a terminal for 8 hours to be a user! Pupils are excluded because they are not employees not because of the time spent in front of the screen.
Garfield Esq  
#5 Posted : 18 April 2012 11:03:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Garfield Esq

Heather Collins wrote:
Pupils are not defined as users under the Regs. Workstations used solely by pupils aren't subject to the Regs. However it's obviously good practice to set up such stations properly and teach the children about this as part of any ICT course. I would certainly risk assess the ICT area with this in mind. Ken - you don't have to sit in front of a terminal for 8 hours to be a user! Pupils are excluded because they are not employees not because of the time spent in front of the screen.
Thanks Heather, I thought so, however thought I would ask the question (and show myself up!) Is there any where in H&S law where 'employee' is defined? Ken, you should check out the Regs / ACoP re definition of 'user'! Thanks all... G
Ken Slack  
#6 Posted : 18 April 2012 11:12:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ken Slack

OK So I didn't quote correctly directly from the regs, was trying to get my opinion across (which is the same as yours) that children aren't defined as users. Doesn't mean I haven't read the regs..... They may not be 'employees' Heather but are still offered the same protection under S3 of the HSW 74 Act....
Heather Collins  
#7 Posted : 18 April 2012 11:13:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Heather Collins

Garfield - it's not showing yourself up to ask a question. Showing yourself up would be to not ask and plunge on blindly assuming! ;-) The definition of employee is not so straightforward as you might think and has been the subject of discussion here before. More HR than H&S I suppose but very relevant to us. If I recall correctly (though this is not my area of expertise!) it turns on such things as whether the person has Employer's NI contributions paid for them and so on. Gets interesting when you consider duties to Agency staff (not employees) or to people who effectively work for you full time but are paid as consultants - mind you this latter example is more one for HMRC than HSE!
Heather Collins  
#8 Posted : 18 April 2012 11:17:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Heather Collins

Ken - I agree about S3 of course. That's because it's there to protect "persons other than employees". I used to be the H&S Governor at a Junior school so am aware of the difficulty in interpreting specific duties under H&S legislation where pupils are concerned. In this case I agree that workstations should be set up correctly regardless of the application or not of the Regs, but other duties such as eyesight tests will clearly not apply to pupils because they are not legally "users"
chris42  
#9 Posted : 18 April 2012 11:23:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

The regulations specifically state you have to be an employee or self-employed to be considered a user or operator. So in this instance I would consider Children in school to be considered general public, so the following part of the regulations also applies :- 1(4) Nothing in these Regulations shall apply to or in relation to– (c)display screen equipment mainly intended for public operation; If the children were using computers for other reasons (maybe charity work or something) I would think about that situation separately ( Ie somewhere they could be considered workers). Despite the regulations, having a well set up workstation would be a good thing to do. I attended a computer training course last year, where the layout was not good and made carrying out the training very difficult (we had to work from books, but nowhere to put them down while we typed).
Ron Hunter  
#10 Posted : 18 April 2012 11:31:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Our UK DSE Regs, as with most of our modern Regulations, are derived from European Directives specifically concerned with providing protection to workers. Pupils at School are not 'workers'. That said, I have come across some excellent IT suite provision, even in Primary Schools, with child-size full adjusting office type chairs and the like. At the other end of the spectrum of course we have the cheap and cheerful ubiquitous plastic or wooden bucket chair guaranteed to numb the posterior in less than an hour - as witnessed at many a School concert!
Garfield Esq  
#11 Posted : 18 April 2012 11:33:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Garfield Esq

chris42 wrote:
The regulations specifically state you have to be an employee or self-employed to be considered a user or operator. So in this instance I would consider Children in school to be considered general public, so the following part of the regulations also applies :- 1(4) Nothing in these Regulations shall apply to or in relation to– (c)display screen equipment mainly intended for public operation; If the children were using computers for other reasons (maybe charity work or something) I would think about that situation separately ( Ie somewhere they could be considered workers). Despite the regulations, having a well set up workstation would be a good thing to do. I attended a computer training course last year, where the layout was not good and made carrying out the training very difficult (we had to work from books, but nowhere to put them down while we typed).
Excellent advice from all. Thanks. I agree 100% that the principle of the regs should be applied to School Children if relevant. More importantly, I recall completing my Post Grad 2 years ago by distance learning and thinking that my fingers were going numb with the excessive course work...I smile now but did I do any long-term damage?? Food for thought!
Graham Bullough  
#12 Posted : 18 April 2012 11:34:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

The DSE regulations apply to teachers and other employees who use computers at schools as part of their work but not pupils/students (including mature/evening class students) who are using such equipment as part of their education/tuition. Even though pupils/students are not "at work", I concur with decimomal in thinking that responsible teachers/tutors should tell their pupils/students about the existence, purpose and content of the DSE regulations, and also try to arrange for them to be observed at school/college as far as is reasonably practicable. Also bear in mind that many pupils have computers at home and some may be using them for long periods, e.g. for computer games. Therefore, in my opinion, good teachers should advise their pupils - AND the parents of such pupils - to apply aspects of the DSE regulations to their use of computers at home. Though this is not a legal requirement, it's surely good practice as part of educating pupils and preparing/equipping them to deal with life. While on the subject of school computers I found that some of my employer's schools (well, ex-employer since my retirement just before Easter) seemed to think that it was obligatory for computer screens to be located on top of computer boxes. This configuration forces pupils and staff to move their heads and eyes significantly more than necessary when alternating between screens and keyboards. If so, it suggests that some schools don't fully understand the need for computer users to be able to readily adjust their computer workstations. Mind you, this aspect isn't helped by the fact that HSE guidance about DSE seems to persist in including a diagram of a person sat at a desk looking at a screen on top of a computer box. This arrangement might be fine for users with touch typing ability but surely not for most users.
Garfield Esq  
#13 Posted : 18 April 2012 11:45:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Garfield Esq

ron hunter wrote:
Our UK DSE Regs, as with most of our modern Regulations, are derived from European Directives specifically concerned with providing protection to workers. Pupils at School are not 'workers'. That said, I have come across some excellent IT suite provision, even in Primary Schools, with child-size full adjusting office type chairs and the like. At the other end of the spectrum of course we have the cheap and cheerful ubiquitous plastic or wooden bucket chair guaranteed to numb the posterior in less than an hour - as witnessed at many a School concert!
Ok, better get back to some form of work! However look at this from IOSH FB page! http://www.flickr.com/ph...83030526/in/photostream/
Roly  
#14 Posted : 18 April 2012 12:40:07(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Roly

Even though the regulations do not apply to school children, a good organisation would treat the regulations as "good practice" or a code of practice, and apply the same standards. I agree with the replies that they should be introducing children to the standards that they would expect to encounter within the workplace. Every time I see school children on TV at their computers they are normally are sitting on plastic bucket seats.
johnld  
#15 Posted : 18 April 2012 19:24:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnld

Going slightly off track from the original question. This discussion often came up in relation to students in HE, particularly those students who were studying computing. Certainly they were not employees under the regulations, however it think most universities treated students as if they were employees when setting up work stations and providing training. But this was not extended to eyesight testing. The more difficult group to deal with were post graduate students who undertook “Demonstrating” ie providing some teaching and instruction to under graduates. This group were normally treated as employees as they did receive some payment for these duties.
StephenJWClegg.  
#16 Posted : 18 April 2012 19:46:38(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
StephenJWClegg.

Graham Bullough wrote:
The DSE regulations apply to teachers and other employees who use computers at schools as part of their work but not pupils/students (including mature/evening class students) who are using such equipment as part of their education/tuition. Even though pupils/students are not "at work", I concur with decimomal in thinking that responsible teachers/tutors should tell their pupils/students about the existence, purpose and content of the DSE regulations, and also try to arrange for them to be observed at school/college as far as is reasonably practicable. Also bear in mind that many pupils have computers at home and some may be using them for long periods, e.g. for computer games. Therefore, in my opinion, good teachers should advise their pupils - AND the parents of such pupils - to apply aspects of the DSE regulations to their use of computers at home. Though this is not a legal requirement, it's surely good practice as part of educating pupils and preparing/equipping them to deal with life. While on the subject of school computers I found that some of my employer's schools (well, ex-employer since my retirement just before Easter) seemed to think that it was obligatory for computer screens to be located on top of computer boxes. This configuration forces pupils and staff to move their heads and eyes significantly more than necessary when alternating between screens and keyboards. If so, it suggests that some schools don't fully understand the need for computer users to be able to readily adjust their computer workstations. Mind you, this aspect isn't helped by the fact that HSE guidance about DSE seems to persist in including a diagram of a person sat at a desk looking at a screen on top of a computer box. This arrangement might be fine for users with touch typing ability but surely not for most users.
StephenJWClegg.  
#17 Posted : 18 April 2012 19:50:25(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
StephenJWClegg.

Sorry about the empty post... what I meant to say was, Graham this is brilliant advice. I've attended many meetings and listened to your thoughts on practical H&S. I didn't know you'd retired - enjoy! Kind regards Stephen.
Bob Howden  
#18 Posted : 19 April 2012 09:19:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Bob Howden

In Scotland the Scottish Schools Education Resource Centre have published some excellent guidance on school ICT suites. Not sure if this link will work as you normally have to be registered with them to access their documents http://www.science3-18.o...amp;id=999&Itemid=19
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