Hi there, it's the first time I have posted something here. So I'm hoping someone will be able to help. My other half has been told in her school that the are not to give CPR to children if they require it even though the department she works in (PE) are first aid and CPR qualified. This is not a final decision yet and the teachers have reacted to this too. I have my views on this. If you are trained to give first aid and you don't, you have failed in a duty of care to that person under your care. Also you are negligent? If your are in danger than that makes a different case but.... also if your child was at that school, as a parent would you want to be informed of the decision?

The person who gave that instruction needs to be challenged.........and educated.

Speaking as a first aider, there may be times when I don't feel that I have the necessary skills, despite having been trained (due to time lapsed since training for instance). However, it is a different matter if someone tells me that I can't use the skills that I know I have!!

As a first aider myself, I am free to give first aid to whoever needs it, ie work colleagues, members of the public, etc. I am under no duty to provide first aid, but in a life and death situation I would not think twice about giving CPR to anyone and, subject to exceptional circumstances, I'm not aware that anyone else has the authority to dictate to me who I can and can't provide CPR to.

Thank-you all for the speed in replies, I'm sure they have been trained in pediatric but ill double check. They have had no explanation from the head even when asked, his child also attends the school! This topic doesn't seem as clear cut as I thourght. I find it odd to train people in first aid then tell them not to use it.

BLS for children Is exactly the same as adults with a few slight modifications in hand positioning, and 5 rescue breaths first. Children's BLS is taught on all courses as far as I'm aware that qualify for FAW quals. Phil

^^what He said!^^

The published requirements for the content of an HSE-approved FAW course don't include any mention of children. Presumably because the legal requirement is only to provide first aid for employees, which children of that age won't be. Still no reason not to teach it to a first aider who works in a school!

In the past I was trained in CRP. What's the danger of doing CPR wrong - broken rib/punctured lung. What's the danger of someone who's heart is not beating or not breathing - DEATH. If my child had collapsed in a PE lesson frankly I would not give a dam what training the teacher had been given so long as they tried their best! As for standing by and doing nothing with a child at your feet who is not breathing and who's hearts has stopped now that would give health and safety a bad name.

Challenge the decision to see if it is genuine and not just misquoted bunkum. If it is the policy ask them to commit to putting it in writing. Can't say that I know of any first aid trained person who would not attempt to save a life, that's why we volunteer to be first aiders!!

Guys, We are losing sight of the facts here. It's called BASIC life support for a reason. The regs changed recently to make it easier to coach telephone CPR. Its been made very straight forward for lay people. Everyone gets 30:2 and everyone gets their chest squished by a third of its depth, wether you 3 months or 103 years old!! Many people were put off by the ratios and id there 2 rescuers, or they were kids etc. This has now all been standardised to make it easy and BASIC. I don't know of any provider including us an Ambulance service that don't teach the modifications for children and babies in BLS. I would agree with te last poster that practice is the only way to keep skills fresh using mannequins under the supervision of an instructor. Contact your local Heartstart coordinator. They will bring their team and do the course for you as a refresher. AND IT'S FREE, before anyone shouts about costs, and justifying it to the grown ups. How many of your people that have recently done the 3 day FAW have approached you to do their yearly bit of CPD In the spirit of the qualification?? I know of very few, an I teach or assess a couple of courses a month!!! Phil

My view point is to train the people in first aid and should the need arise let them make the decision at that time. It is wrong, in my opinion, for any company to have a policy or point of view not to do CPR! It is right to train people and provide them with the skills should they require it. There is information here http://www.resus.org.uk/pages/guide.htm from the Resuscitation Council (UK)

This really does seem a bizarre way to run a school or any other organisation. As mentioned by others, I'm not aware of any specific legal duty of care to undertake first aid. However! I think there's a very clear moral duty of care. If I was a parent of a child at the school I'd want a very full explanation of the reasoning behind this decision. I'll be very interested to see how this develops. It may also be worth considering contacting the new HSE body set up specifically to deal with bonkers H&S decisions.

Hi Graham, We are currently teaching the Heartstart BLS course to many schools and scout/guide groups in our area. Its promoted by the British Heart Foundation. Its free, and takes approx 2.5 hours. It teaches BLS for adults and the adaptions for children and babies. Also life threatening bleeds and choking. It is usually led by one instructor, with as many as 6 other instructors with an Annie doll each to allow everyone to have as much practice as possible. We do separate sessions for teachers and classroom assistants, and they are very well received.The kids love it. All the trainers are volunteers, and usually Community First responders or other health care professionals. Most areas in the North West have a scheme (can't speak for the rest of the country sorry) Phil

Reeves, gimme their name - I'm gonna tell Vinnie Jones :)

Look at this realistically. Who would physically stop this person giving CPR in any given situation? Then look at the legal implications, it can be demonstrated through actually carrying out CPR that the sole intention was to preserve life. If Vinny Jones can advocate heart massage on TV then I dont see the problem. On the other hand were I trained to carry out first aid and didnt, just because I didnt want to, the courts again cannot do anything about it.

Graham asked if any children recieve first aid training at school, my daughter did basic first aid in her last yera of primary school and the whole class did a couple of safety events including a day at special facility in Bristol which included a fire evacuation. They loved it, she and her friend spent a whole weekend at Centre parcs pointing out "hazards" to me. Not sure whether to be proud or slightly embarrassed by their shrill enthusiasm. The Scout organisation is very keen on first aid for the members, as well as encouraging a calm and methodical approach to problems. Nic

Hi Stevem"I'm surprised at you too!!!! he he if you look at the top of that algorithm you have quoted, its " for healthcare professionals with a duty of care " ie not lay people as is being discussed here. For lay people and FAW (unless your a Doc or Para or other allied HCP) the teaching is everyone gets 30;2, and their chest squished by one third depth Phil

Many thanks to HeO2 and nic168 for their positive information about first aid training and/or safety awareness sessions for schools and scout/guide groups. Nic168 ought to be chuffed at the enthusiasm of his daughter and her friend for hazard spotting. If kids generally could be similarly motivated perhaps fewer OS&H professionals would be needed in the long term future! In this context it’s worth mentioning a multi-agency scheme known as Crucial Crew which provides training and awareness about various safety topics for older pupils from primary schools. The topics include fire safety in the home, first aid, railway safety, keeping off building sites and electrical safety, and are covered during ‘workshop’ sessions led by trained people from a wide range of relevant organisations. The environmental health dept of my recent employer arranges a Crucial Crew week each year for local primary schools and experiences strong competition for places because teachers and pupils alike think the scheme is brilliant. I had no involvement with Crucial Crew myself but, from what I read and heard from various sources, think it is an excellent scheme. Therefore, I suggest that forum users with children and grandchildren of primary school age should ask if they have received or are likely to receive Crucial Crew training. If not or there is some uncertainty, their schools and local authorities ought to be encouraged/pestered to arrange it. There’s ample information about Crucial Crew schemes in various parts of the UK on the internet, including an interactive computer game at http://www.crucial-crew.org/index.cfm which is based on the scheme’s different workshop sessions. Also, many schools especially primary schools arrange for local fire officers to visit and give talks to their pupils. A few years ago one primary headteacher told me that she received complaints from a few parents after a class had received a talk from an especially inspiring and communicative fire officer. The parents were annoyed that their children had come home afterwards and pestered them about deficiencies, e.g. the need to get smoke alarms, be more careful about cigarettes and matches and to agree a home emergency evacuation procedure. It was great to hear of kids educating their parents in this way - and furthermore that the headteacher had told the complainers that she had nothing about which to apologise!

As a parent it certainly will make me now contact my sons school to find out if this is their policy. I took it for granted (clearly now wrongly) that teachers would have such training and be permitted to use it - thank you for raising the point - and bringing it to our attention