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Scenario is a privately owned country house and farm business who are having a lot of work done, including re-roofing, landscaping, fencing and cable laying. These activities are being undertaken by four different contractors who in turn are likely to employ their own subcontractors. The four contractors have been engaged separately by the client.
My question is, does one of the contractors become the 'Principal Contractor' for the whole site, even though the projects are entirely separate, or are they independent of (from?) each other with the Client assuming overall responsibility?
What is the extent of the powers of the architect - can he insist that one contractor becomes the Principal Contractor and assume responsibility for the others? My client is aware of the requirement to cooperate and comunicate but is uneasy about the expectation that he assumes the formal role of 'Principal Contractor' and any liability that may attach.
Ta.
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33 views and no suggestions.
Can anybody help?
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Assuming that this work is involving more than 500 person days then this should be notifiable, if as it sounds it is not for a domestic client?
Is the work in the private dwelling or business (farm) related surely the architect (Designer)should be aware of his duties to ensure to check a CDM-C is appointed who in turn should ensure the client understands his duty of appointing a PC.
Clients must only employ designers who are competent to carry out their CDM duties and it is a breach of any duty holder to undertake a duty that they are not competent of.
The client’s position is that he assumes the legal responsibility of CDM-C and PC if these duty holders have not been appointed.
Domestic clients have no duties under CDM2007 however the designers and contractors still have their normal duties as set out in parts 2 & 4 of CDM2007
Designers are usually the first point of contact for the client they have a specific duty to make the client aware of the clients responsibilities under CDM 2007.
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What about the question of 4 contractors on the same site carrying out 4 separate projects and whether one of them assumes responsibilty as PC?
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Decimomal,
I suggest you read Chris's post above, which is quite clear. The Client will be PC and responsible for PC Duties, if one of the four Contractors has not been appointed by the Client.
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It's a country house and farm business - so perhaps not predominantly a domestic dwelling, so notifiable and, regardless, CDM principals should apply. It strikes me that if the client has not appointed a principal contractor and made it clear that they expect that contractor to fulfill that role then the defcato responsibility of Principal Contractor falls to the client?
The logic of CDM is competence, with each role; designer, client, principal contractor and CDM coordinator responsible for considering the competence of the others. The question: "Can the architect insist on appointing a principal contractor?" Is not simple but the answer is, if the architect is responsible for appointing the contractors then he can - but he has to appoint a contractor competent and willing to act as principal and he (or she) may expect to pay the contractor additional for undertaking the role.
If you already have 4 contractors and none of them is willing to be Principal the the answer must be:
"Directions? Well I wouldn't start from here"
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Rank: Super forum user
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Thank you for the responses everybody.
Nick, I am assuming your post was meant to be friendly but it did come accross as a bit harsh.
Tompkins - This is where we are at. My client is the biggest contractor on site and has been asked to act as PC. He is certainly competent but not too willing as he is worried about the potential implications on him in relation to the other contractors if he takes on the formal role of PC.
I have advised that he gets his CDMC involved and also reminded him that the ultimate responsibility lies with the client.
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Mmm I'd be a little uncomfortable in your and your client's situation at this point (note here that I'm no CDM expert) You client sound like the perfect choice to be principal contractor (PC) as he already has concerns over the structure of the project. But if he takes on the role of PC then he will have to enforce site rules and accept a certain level of responsibility should rules not be kept and an incident ocured?
I think you need to talk to the Client and get things sorted out - I'd get a copy of "Managing Health and Safety in construction" (HSE) and wave it in his/her face and try to explain about their responsibility to appoint competent people and to ensure roles are clearly defined. Even if it's not a notifiable project the Regs still apply.
Hope I don't sound harsh? Discussion forums can be a little difficult to 'hear' the tone of voice as it were.
Cheers
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Just to reiterate and to make the answer as plain as I can:
Firstly if it is domestic project then the client has no duties under CDM2007.
However the designer which means any person undertaking such work as Architect, Civil/Structural engineers, Surveyors, Landscape architects even the client if they have an input into design, and the contractors have duties as set out in parts 2 & 4 of CDM2007. If the do not fulfil these duties that would be a breach of CDM 2007.
In this case a lead designer should be nominated (usually the designer with the main input).
If it is not domestic then if the project is over 30 working days or 500 person days them it would be notifiable. If this project has not been notified that will be a breach ofCDM2007 legislation.
The designer (Architect) has a specific duty to ensure that the client is aware of their duties if not that is a breach of legislation.
The client is in breach of CDM 2007 if duty holders such as the CDM-C & Principal contractors are not appointed and by default they will be legally responsible, sounds like a second breach of legislation.
Lastly it is specific requirement that no person accepts a duty under CDM 2007 unless they are competent
I respectfully enquire do you have a role in this project? Are you competent? If not yet another breach of legislation.
CDM 2007 is co-operation and co-ordination, communication and competence all being of equal importance.
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If the project also comes under SWMP then the PC [there has to be one] will also have substancial duties in that area
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Rank: Super forum user
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tompkins wrote:Mmm I'd be a little uncomfortable in your and your client's situation at this point (note here that I'm no CDM expert) You client sound like the perfect choice to be principal contractor (PC) as he already has concerns over the structure of the project. But if he takes on the role of PC then he will have to enforce site rules and accept a certain level of responsibility should rules not be kept and an incident ocured? I think you need to talk to the Client and get things sorted out - I'd get a copy of "Managing Health and Safety in construction" (HSE) and wave it in his/her face and try to explain about their responsibility to appoint competent people and to ensure roles are clearly defined. Even if it's not a notifiable project the Regs still apply. Hope I don't sound harsh? Discussion forums can be a little difficult to 'hear' the tone of voice as it were.
Cheers
Chris Cahill wrote:Just to reiterate and to make the answer as plain as I can: Firstly if it is domestic project then the client has no duties under CDM2007. However the designer which means any person undertaking such work as Architect, Civil/Structural engineers, Surveyors, Landscape architects even the client if they have an input into design, and the contractors have duties as set out in parts 2 & 4 of CDM2007. If the do not fulfil these duties that would be a breach of CDM 2007. In this case a lead designer should be nominated (usually the designer with the main input).If it is not domestic then if the project is over 30 working days or 500 person days them it would be notifiable. If this project has not been notified that will be a breach ofCDM2007 legislation.The designer (Architect) has a specific duty to ensure that the client is aware of their duties if not that is a breach of legislation. The client is in breach of CDM 2007 if duty holders such as the CDM-C & Principal contractors are not appointed and by default they will be legally responsible, sounds like a second breach of legislation. Lastly it is specific requirement that no person accepts a duty under CDM 2007 unless they are competent I respectfully enquire do you have a role in this project? Are you competent? If not yet another breach of legislation. CDM 2007 is co-operation and co-ordination, communication and competence all being of equal importance.
Phew; thanks again for your valued comments, it really is appreciated.
It is a notifiable project as the client is a businees and the project has been notified to HSE. My role is really just to act as a general health and safety adviser to our own client who is the biggest contractor on site (a small family run construction company). As such I have advised along the lines as has been suggested here. Our client is content to take on the role of PC and induct all operatives / enforce site rules, but we are still not clear on things as it is four completely separate projects that just happen to be going on within the 270 acre estate at the same time, and do not have an impact on each other save for being in the same general environment .
I have already met the client and advised her of her duties under CDM and have been invited to attend a site meeting next week where I will meet the architect and CDMC with a view to nailing this.
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Last one from me then -
The projects are going on in the same general environment, which means there may be interaction on&off-site? even down to shared vehicle access, loading storage etc?
If so it should be treated as one project for H&S as it's going to be the interaction between operations that poses the highest area for mishap (that's a new H&S term mishap)
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Slightly different subject however it was prudent for Bob to mention.
Site waste management Plans (SWMP) are now a legal requirement in England for all construction projects that were started after 6 April 2008 with an estimated construction cost of over £300,000.
A waste champion (PC) must be appointed to take overall responsibility for the SWMP, this could be the client in the pre-construction phase and then it may pass to the project Principal Contractor (PC) during construction however it may be another nominated person but whoever is responsible they must be competent to understand and manage the plan.
The client and the PC would be required to sign a declaration that they will handle materials efficiently and manage waste appropriately.
If not it would be a breach of more legislation. Prosecutions can result in £50,000 fines, or on-the-spot penalties, and both companies and individuals can be held liable.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Thanks Tomkins, I think that summarises it nicely.
My Thesauras offers alternatives for Mishap as - Accident, Calamity, Misfortune, Disaster and Catastrophe. I think Calamity is a wonderful word!!
Decimo
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