Rank: Forum user 
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Hi All
does anyone have a CDM flowchart that i could view to assist with the who does what and when process.
Just need to keep things simple as possible
Many thanks
Dave
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Rank: Super forum user
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Zanshin, a flowchart that could guide you through ANY and EVERY type of construction project would not be simple.
I suggest studying the 'responsibilities' pages at HSE, there's links explaining what each dutyholder has to do and you can tune the procedures into a flowchart to fit your kind of project.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Who does what is in a table in the ACOP (paragraph 23). The ACOP is free from the HSE web pages.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Thanks Heather, I forgot to add the link.
Zanshin, as achrn says, there is a table/list in the ACoP L144. However, it lists some duties like 'Report obvious risks' and 'Consult with the workers' and 'Eliminate hazards and reduce risks during design' without saying HOW to do them.
For your project I expect you want a flowchart that includes what the hazrds are and how to avoid them. that's down to you and the dutyholders to discuss.
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Rank: Forum user
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Rank: Forum user
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Many thanks everyone,
just looking for a flowchart that indicates matters such as general document control,
PQQ
assess competent duty holders
PCI
CPP etc
H&S file
Cheers
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Rank: Forum user
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1. Initial discussion and project review
2. Survey work /project area and review
3. Set up project file
4. Request project time plan
5. Organise up to date CDM drawing
6. Organise Duty holders
7. Discuss SWMP
8. Notify project if appropriate
9. Develop Preconstruction information
10. Develop CPHSP
11. Prove CPHSP is adequate
12. Undertake preliminary site specific hazard analysis
13. Set up signage etc and site guidance/ fences etc.
14. Request contractor list and suitable MS &RA for review
15. Send out any project guidance
16. Undertake contractor competence checks
17. Complete project hand over certificate
18. Undertake Inductions/day to day H&S monitoring/ Morning briefs/Toolbox talks/Contractor
H+S meetings/ Daily site checks/ Weekly report.
19. Attend regular CDM & project review meetings
20. Request information for the project H&S file
21. Complete project hand back certificate
22. Hand over Health and safety file
23. Review project
To undertake a duty under CDM2007 you need to be competent, if you accept a role that you are not competent for that is a breach of CDM2007. I suggest you obtain "local" competent advice.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Chris
Your detailed response exposes the minefield. Number 8 on your list would come before many, if not all, of the items you mention. Notification should ideally, according to the HSE ideas, come at project inception - eg before even planning consent is achieved. Your number 2 is actually 2 steps - yet another problem with many flowcharts - including the HSE 5 steps to risk assessment.
CDM flow needs to be understood best in the entirety of its intention - To manage H&S effectively on site, with side requirements to provide information for proper use wrt H&S and eventual decommissioning, also wrt H&S.
Bob
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Rank: Forum user
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Bob
I take your point but I think its best to notify when you have basics of the project laid out.
My post was really just trying to provoke thought on main points that should be considered.
Chris
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Rank: Super forum user
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boblewis wrote:Your detailed response exposes the minefield. Number 8 on your list would come before many, if not all, of the items you mention. Notification should ideally, according to the HSE ideas, come at project inception - eg before even planning consent is achieved.
I don't see anything in items 1-7 that suggests planning consent has been obtained before item 8.
You can't notify until you know enough about the project. In particular, you need to establish if it is of (or near) notification size - which means knowing the outcomes of items 1 to 7, surely?
More significant shortcomings, as a list of CDM duties, IMO, is the inclusion of items that aren't CDM (item 18 and all the waste management stuff) and the omission of others (designer competence, co-ordinate design work, site welfare) ? Also, a list of all the duties but no distinction as to who they belong to could be misleading - some of the items are CDMC, many are contractor, some are client, but the designer duties seem to be omitted from the list.
The reality of the situation is that CDM cannot be reduced to a single bullet list or flowchart.
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Rank: Super forum user
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achrn,
Project inception is the moment when a client decides it is likely that he has a construction project. The overall scheme design is there and this is the time that the HSE believe that initial notification should be made. Details do NOT need to be complete - even the ultimate detailed designer may not be appointed but the HSE guidance has always been at all sessions they provided prior to 2007 and beyond is that any notification made when the tender has been prepared is ultimately too late. They simply choose not to force the issue. If the work is too short for notification then that too is known at inception and the decision made. My comment re planning was that it is a point in time at which the size of the project is for instance known. You certainly will not be requesting project files or time plans for instance at inception but even here notification needs are known. There are stages to be achieved in any project and there are milestone dates in the Gannt diagram that must/should be achieved before the next stage commences, some may overlap, but each stage has critical completion points that should prevent movement forward in the overall project plan. The key then is to link CDM needs into the project programme rather than the reverse. This technique is the use management systems to control the project cdm activities of the project in relationship to the other activities.
Fit CDM stages to the project timeline and not the reverse. The task of later management then becomes far easier and more efficient.
Bob
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Rank: Super forum user
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boblewis wrote:Project inception is the moment when a client decides it is likely that he has a construction project. The overall scheme design is there and this is the time that the HSE believe that initial notification should be made. Details do NOT need to be complete[/quote']
I disagree with your definition of "project inception", and your definition makes no sense anyway. The client knows he is likely to have a construction project well before overall scheme design is there. Scheme design won't be done before a client thinks he is likely to have a construction project.
Project inception is the inception of a project. The start. The beginning. That's well before overall scheme design, before outline scheme design, before initial discussion, before initial design work and before notification.
Noitification is required "as soon as is practicable AFTER initial design work or other preparation for construction work has begun" (regulation 14 (1). If work on the project has begun, it must be after project inception, by definition.
I did not say anything whatsoever about whether details would be complete at that stage. I didn't suggest that ultimate detailed designer should (or would) be appointed. I said you can't notify until you know enough about the project to notify. Are you really disagreeing with that? You advocate notifying before you know whether notification is necessary or appropriate and before you know enough to notify?
I still say omitting entirely any mention of any designer duties from a list that purports to be a list of CDM duties is a gargantuan omission. They are , after all, the construction DESIGN and management regs.
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Rank: Forum user
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My post was a list to provoke thought.
I foolishly believed that the competence of persons reading and having input onto this thread would have knowledge of the duty holders roles without pinpointing exactly each duty holder and the role they undertake, obviously achrn you are struggling with this point.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Chris Cahill wrote:My post was a list to provoke thought.
I foolishly believed that the competence of persons reading and having input onto this thread would have knowledge of the duty holders roles without pinpointing exactly each duty holder and the role they undertake, obviously achrn you are struggling with this point.
In which case, why post anything other than:
1: everyone duty holder does what is necessary under the cdm regs
Which was actually what several of teh posts said - it can't be reduced to a neat, simple, single list.
I don't think it's coherent to respond to a request for a list of who does what, with a list that omits some of the who and quite a lot of the what, and then defend the list with the assertion that obviously you assumed that anyone reading the answer would know the answer already.
So yes, you're right. I'm struggling with what was the point of posting a response to the question "what is required under cdm" which omitted several of the fundamental requirements under cdm, at least without saying 'some duties on some dutyholders are...' or words to that effect.
Whether or not the omission was driven by an assumption that everyone knows what the designer duties are, I still believe omitting entirely any mention of any designer duties from a list that purports to be a list of CDM duties is a gargantuan omission. I also still believe the requested simple flow chart doesn't exist (can't exist) - if it did, it would be already published.
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Rank: Super forum user
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achrn
You are arguing precisely my case. Notify as soon as possible, or not, when you know you have a project concieved in your mind and the overall scheme designer has offered a scheme that you accept. The detailed scheme development via the primary design team then commences. Looked at like this then notification issues are dealt with in the planning consent and design development period. We know that notification has to be completed before day 1 on site and thus simple flowcharts of CDM flow alone do not work out. Everything has to be related to the project programme and not the reverse. Every project has to some extent at least:
Inception
Design Development
Tender
Appointment
Construction start
Commissioning
Practical completion
Records and information
Snagging period
These may be subdivided in many ways but the essential structure remains.
The real art is to build the CDM into this basic structure.
Bob
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Rank: Super forum user
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Chris Cahill wrote:My post was a list to provoke thought.
I foolishly believed that the competence of persons reading and having input onto this thread would have knowledge of the duty holders roles without pinpointing exactly each duty holder and the role they undertake, obviously achrn you are struggling with this point.
In which case, why post anything other than:
1: every duty holder does what is necessary under the cdm regs
Which was actually what several of teh posts said - it can't be reduced to a neat, simple, single list, you need knowledge of the regs to determine what is required in different circumstances.
I don't think it's coherent to respond to a request for a list of who does what, with a list that omits some of the who and quite a lot of the what, and then defend the list with the assertion that obviously you assumed that anyone reading the answer would know the answer already.
So yes, you're right. I'm struggling with what was the point of posting a response to the question "what is required under cdm" which omitted several of the fundamental requirements under cdm, at least without words acknowledging or highlighting the omission.
Whether or not the omission was driven by an assumption that everyone knows what the designer duties are, I still believe omitting entirely any mention of any designer duties from a list that purports to be a list of CDM duties is a gargantuan omission. I also still believe the requested simple flow chart doesn't exist (can't exist) - if it did, it would be already published.
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