Rank: Forum user 
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Whats anyones thoughts on Clients having to have CSCS cards to go onto their appointed Principal Contractors project.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Personally I think it is a bit OTT. If the client wishes to visit the site they can be accompanied at all times if the PC considers it necessary for their safety. However, if the client's representative wishes to visit the site regularly ie daily, then asking them to gain a CSCS card is not an unreasonable request. All said and done, the PC is responsible for site safety and site rules. If it is mandatory for everyone who goes on site to have a CSCS/CPCS card - then so be it.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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The Contract Terms should clarify. Any Client will write in site visit requirements. If Client didn't ask for it (CSCS), he can't be bound by it. PC would be in breach of Contract.
The tail does not wag the dog.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Ron, the PC is responsible for site safety and site rule as per CDM Regs. Moreover, contractual requirements are sub-ordinate to law and therefore I don't see how the Client has any grounds for a complaint or a claim for breach of contract.
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Rank: Super forum user
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There is no law requiring CSCS.
CDM requires competent appointments.
The Client appoints the PC.
The tail does not wag the dog.
Contract law is entirely relevant.
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Rank: Super forum user
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There is no law requiring CSCS. Agreed.
CDM requires competent appointments. Agreed.
The Client appoints the PC. Agreed.
Contract law is entirely relevant. Disagree.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Well I'm darn sure that Lord Coe, Boris & Co didn't do the CSCS test before accessing the Olympic Stadium....... & I for one certainly ain't going to ask the Director of a Premiership Club I'm currently working as PC for to 'show' me his CSCS card.
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Rank: Super forum user
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There goes the Site visit by the local School kids then!
It may be the PCs Site, but it's the Client's Project. No problem with obeying Site Rules, but don't tell me I can't visit my own Project without jumping through some CSCS hoop nonsense!
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Rank: Super forum user
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Would a HSE officer have a CSCS card?
As long as visitors are accompanied at all times, I see no reason for them having to have a CSCS card. The same can be said for visitors in other situations. You get into problems if visitors are left unaccompanied, as that’s when they can get into trouble!
Employees who work in our warehouses have specific training on warehouse safety and safe pedestrian movement etc. etc. However we don't insist that visitors complete the same training! The requirement that all visitors read and understand general site rules and the fact they are required to be accompanied at all times ensures their safety.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Morning all,
I personally cannot understand CSCS card requirements. There is no training involved, it is up to the person taking the multiple choice question test, to either have an ounce of common sense or have actually read/revised the book.
The PC on one of my jobs turned away an IOSH trained person just because he didn’t have a CSCS card, surely the IOSH training would suffice as suitable and sufficient training?
And at £17.50 per test and £30 per card, it’s a lot of money for no formal training, I would much rather spend that £50 on actual H&S training.
Am I wrong in my view??
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Rank: Super forum user
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For the record, I have very little faith in the CSCS system, however the question was whether the PC can insist on the client's representative having the card to visit the site.
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Rank: Forum user
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Theres a difference between working on site and an accompanied site vist. I think you would need to use a bit of common sense here
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Rank: Super forum user
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RayRapp wrote:For the record, I have very little faith in the CSCS system, however the question was whether the PC can insist on the client's representative having the card to visit the site. If CSCS is the requirement as per PC rules, then yes. I dont see why the site clerk (Sitting at their desk never seeing site) must have a CSCS visitor card, and Client visiting/walking around site must not. One rule for one and not for the other and all that. SO I cannot see why the Client who is in the construction sector cannot go like everyone else and do the test. Can we all get together and stop this CSCS requirements??
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Rank: Super forum user
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Lawlee45239
No chance whatsoever as the PCs love it - see a card and hey presto they think their job of assessing competence is done. The whole notions of CSCS etc are a mockery of competent operative and competent supervision assessment. The HSE are as guilty as many others in pushing the system without ensuring that such a card is understood as being simply evidence of a test on a computer screen and the possion of an NVQ or equivalent in a trade or skill/profession.
Bob
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Rank: Super forum user
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Lawlee45239 wrote:I cannot see why the Client who is in the construction sector cannot go like everyone else and do the test. A great many speculative and non-expert Clients are NOT in the Construction Sector. I find the whole notion of suggesting that the Client's visiting representatives "must" pass and possess CSCS to be utterly ridiculous. I would hope HSE would agree.
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Rank: Super forum user
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ron hunter wrote:Lawlee45239 wrote:I cannot see why the Client who is in the construction sector cannot go like everyone else and do the test. A great many speculative and non-expert Clients are NOT in the Construction Sector. I find the whole notion of suggesting that the Client's visiting representatives "must" pass and possess CSCS to be utterly ridiculous. I would hope HSE would agree. I don’t agree with the CSCS scheme, but if it is going to stay then across the board why should the Client be omitted? Surely the Client who employs the PC should also set an example and have the basic requirements. Why should the Client be exempt? Am I totally missing the point?
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Rank: Super forum user
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Just to add I know of a circumstance where the Client and PC fell out and the Client was banned from the site until hand over - think of a large national stadium. The PC can say who is or isn't allowed on site and what ticket or card is required.
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Rank: Super forum user
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So we will soon have a CSCS card for domestic householders then so they can get the builders in. After all competence applies to ALL construction work. The idea of mandatory CSCS is a nonsense and is even more so if you make it mandatory for clients. The world is going mad. The cards were only ever intended for operatives and the extension has created a bureaucratic madness with plenty of rump covering to no real benefit for H&S on site.
Bob
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Rank: Super forum user
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By the way the client has the gold so who sets the rules???
Bob
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cscs cards hummm! number one son just obtained level 3 diploma by exam after a number of years at college. cant register with cscs because dosent have an nvq. once registered for nvq can obtain a expierienced worker card and undertake all bricklaying activities on site unsupervised. only one slight problem no expierience. yep cscs its the future
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Rank: Super forum user 
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boblewis wrote:So we will soon have a CSCS card for domestic householders then so they can get the builders in. After all competence applies to ALL construction work. The idea of mandatory CSCS is a nonsense and is even more so if you make it mandatory for clients. The world is going mad. The cards were only ever intended for operatives and the extension has created a bureaucratic madness with plenty of rump covering to no real benefit for H&S on site.
Bob Wow! a country where every adult has a trackable photo ID card! Surely that would mean...... Oh!
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Rank: Super forum user
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By the way the client has the gold so who sets the rules???'
Good question Bob. In my experience smaller and non-construction orientation clients are happy to allow the PC to set their own rules. Corporate organisations tend to impose a greater influence on how the project is managed. However, this is not necessarily a healthy influence and in my opinion is outside the scope of the CDM Regs.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Ray
It is only because the HSE brought it in scope that people believe CDM makes such cards compulsory. Tail wagging the dog again.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Price21305 wrote:Whats anyones thoughts on Clients having to have CSCS cards to go onto their appointed Principal Contractors project. Going back to the questioned asked. No required by law, however not a lot is in terms of specific training! A good induction and provision of supervision whilst on-site would be more appropriate, in my opinion...
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Rank: Forum user
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It's up to the PC to manage H & S on site and if they insist on a CSCS card why should the client complain, I dare say the client asked the usual endless list of questions through the CDM-C during the PC competence process, so maybe a bit of payback to prove how competent and diligent they are (PC). I don't really believe that CSCS cards are particularly good or an accurate indicator of individual competence but it is a starting point I suppose but could be improved on (at a cost of course). Agree with garfield esq a good induction and supervision, far more site specific and relevant.
As an asside to on site requirements, when I was contract managing 3 years ago I had a call from one of the site managers asking for backup because he had refused entry to the site by our managing director because he had no hat, no high vis and no steet toe capped boots, I went into the MD's office expecting a row but he good naturedly told me he'd stopped off at the builders merchants and picked up the safety gear and wouldn't let it happen again (he had to sit through a half hour induction as well).
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Rank: Forum user
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If the client is working on site they should be assessed for competency as per CDM and site standards.
I previously had a client that was on site daily. Sales ladies taking prospective customers round site. As the PC we insisted that they undertake some sort of construction safety training. They opted for CSCS as it was the site rules.
Clients are not excempt from legislation, sure as eggs are eggs, they'll used it against you. On a previous project, one of our site managers took a ward sister round the 'under construction' ward. She fell and grazed her knees. Site manager had no authotity or need to take her round. (apart from the fact she was pretty) No win no fee claim came in. We got our cheque book out and paid her.
Turn the tables on the client. As for risk assesments to come on site, competencies, who is liable, etc. If you don't ask up front you'll pay later.
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Rank: Super forum user
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So many of us seem not to believe in getting repeat business from our clients. Yes there are issues when the client himself is undertaking construction work on a site BUT such is something that can be worked out. But a client representative just visiting, under supervision and inducted as is the base need, smacks of back covering to the ultimate extent.
Perhaps I am pleased that I am retired because as the film once said it's a Mad Mad Mad World.
Bob
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Rank: Super forum user
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james655 wrote:Turn the tables on the client. As for risk assesments to come on site, competencies, who is liable, etc. If you don't ask up front you'll pay later. As Mr McEnroe would say - you cannot be serious!
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Rank: Forum user
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ron hunter wrote:james655 wrote:Turn the tables on the client. As for risk assesments to come on site, competencies, who is liable, etc. If you don't ask up front you'll pay later. As Mr McEnroe would say - you cannot be serious! Forgot to add that one may require to have a set of balls for this, something that sadly some managers may be deficient :-/ Clients are only human like us, they make mistakes too!
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Rank: Super forum user
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First rule of staying alive in business - Remember who pays you.
Second one is that past clients provide most future business.
Client knocking is all very well but contractors are meant to be the construction experts - not that there is much evidence of this in their behaviour - and this is one example of the narrow blinkered view that prevails among contractors and management systems. I could give scores more.
Bob
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Thanks for all the response, one thing to add would a degree qualified safety professional need to have a CSCS card for competence if based full time on the PC's site.
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Rank: Forum user
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The clients HSE professional on the oppointed PC's site within the clients boundaries.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Frustratingly for me with an MSc yes Price21305 - lost count that the request to show my CSCS card has been asked of me.
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Rank: Forum user
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quote=Price21305]Thanks for all the response, one thing to add would a degree qualified safety professional need to have a CSCS card for competence if based full time on the PC's site.
I know very little about the food industry and if I went into a food factory I would be lost with regards to health and safety. Equally if a food industry safety professional came on one of my sites I would expect the same. So to answer your question, having a degree is safety doesn't make you knowledgeable in all industries. If the site rules are CSCS then EVERYONE should comply or you are down the road of one rule for them one rule for us. I have lost count of the amount of safety professionals that have deemed themselves as competent but have been on site and not known some basic rules and requirements. Remember you are acting for your employer and if you choose to breaks his rules they you are putting yourself in the firing line. Life is about choices.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I am truly amazed that people here believe that the infomation/knowledge required to pass the touch screen test is anything other than a very very basic test of some very very very basic information that ought to be known by a competent practioner in any industry.
The CSCS card was developed as a card giving information to employers concerning the NVQ level of achievement for a range of construction trades. To believe that it makes a holder more aware/knowledgeable of construction H&S than any competent H&S professional is beyond my ken!!!!! The best thing that can happen for the industry is for the CSCS card to revert to what it was always intended to be and cease being a money machine for the CSCS board. Even then I understand they managed to make a loss in some years.
Bob
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Rank: Forum user
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When CSCS was introduced it didn’t over 50% of the trades in construction. The card is only a starting point. I would expect every manger to have completed the 5 day SMSTS as a minimum (as CDM 2007 requires) or as some companies require the Construction Safety Certificate from IOSH or NEBOSH.
And what’s even more truly amazing is the amount of alleged safety professionals that does not those very very very basics for safety in construction. Why? Because it’s not their area of knowledge.
I took a fellow safety professional round a site during my Masters study. She works in a hospital. She was amazed at the information we had to know and the information, very very basic that she didn’t know. Likewise when I visited her hospital, how little I knew about germ control, etc, all very basic safety to her.
Horses for courses, I say, horses for courses.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I think it is a total money racket, and cannot believe that safety personnel need to do a CSCS test, Certs, Diploma, Degrees, Masters, NEBOSH, IOSH, CMIOSH, you would imagine that that would be suitable.
But does the initial question not refer to the Client requiring a CSCS card? And I think yes they should.
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Rank: Super forum user
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And it is not Prometric doing the touch screen tests anymore?
Another agent they have now put Environmental in so more book and CD buying we are in the wrong job?
I did the test to get a CSCS card just for a laugh as I new I would get a Red Trainee Card which makes a 62 year old with plenty of Safety Qualifications laugh but hey ho.
Ta Alex
PS Since CPCS / CSCS came in I was only ever asked once to show a card but never refused entry.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I am not in the construction business so I have not got a CSCS card. This might be appropriate for people working on a building site but not if I was carrying out a site visit. We have had contractors on our site and we have said that they are in charge of H&S on the bit if the site we have handed over .What I would expect if I went over to have a look around to see how things are going is:
• A short induction listing the hazards that exists specifically on that site( not a generic ‘Better take care’ type in induction-
• Instruction as to what PPE required- I am not a fan of blanket rules- hi viz jackets eye protection etc but I can live with that
• Someone assigned to us to show us around
I would be annoyed if I was expected to provide a piece of plastic showing I have competence in relation to construction- It would be like asking visitors to our site having to show competence in working with bioagents or radioisotopes when they have come to change a tap in the toilets.
A contractor who insists on this bureaucratic nonsense would be marked down as someone who has no confidence in their ability to manage H&S in a proportionate way and would not be asked to come back.
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Rank: Super forum user
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As I have just stated similar on another posting - my next door neighbour is a Chartered Surveyor - he told me some time ago that it’s only our industry that is constantly requesting its members to jump through hoops and that their awarding body - RICS - does everything to support and prevent such blatant job creation and money making type quangos. On occasions, experience and qualifications appear to count for nothing.
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