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richardson22118  
#1 Posted : 04 June 2012 16:52:36(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
richardson22118

This same question comes up time and again and I still can't find a definitive answer. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place. Can you wedge open a final exit door for ventilation / access - egress without incurring the wrath of the fire officer? Any help would be appreciated. Regards to all
Safety Smurf  
#2 Posted : 04 June 2012 17:10:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

generally speaking yes. But there are exceptions. As to whether you will incur the wrath of you local FSO, that will depend on their level of understanding of the RRFSO.
messyshaw  
#3 Posted : 04 June 2012 17:26:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
messyshaw

On 98% of all occasions, yes you can most definitely prop such doors open. The only exceptions I can think of are where any fire spread to that corridor may then compromises another escape route. For example, if an external staircase passes close to the (now propped) final exit door, fire/smoke may cut of that staircase MOE. Alternatively, if the final exit door leads to a narrow alleyway, it might be necessary to keep the final exit door closed if a MOE using that alleyway could be compromised. As far as upsetting your local inspecting officer, always get them to quote what part of the RRO they are referring to which has led them to being so upset and then write it down This gives you an opportunity to research the issue later in slow time. As safety Smurf is implying, not all IOs are competent (I should know, I used to be one and some of my colleagues were frighteningly inept!!)
John D C  
#4 Posted : 05 June 2012 12:19:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
John D C

Good answers but also be aware that if you have any local ventilation systems in the area of the door being wedged open you may find that they are not working very well as they will pull their air from the doorway in preference to the rest of the area - just because it is easier. Take care John C
firesafety101  
#5 Posted : 05 June 2012 12:59:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

A wedge is OK to use but please do not use the nearest extinguisher, or a chair or other thingy that may cause an obstruction. Make sure you don't strain the self closer (if fitted) and don't forget to secure the door when you go home.
myudeen  
#6 Posted : 05 June 2012 15:49:40(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
myudeen

Richardson22118 wrote:
This same question comes up time and again and I still can't find a definitive answer. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place. Can you wedge open a final exit door for ventilation / access - egress without incurring the wrath of the fire officer? Any help would be appreciated. Regards to all
I don't know the laws, legislation, regulations or standards in your country, but could you define " final exit door'. However if it is not an emergency door I think you can use it
messyshaw  
#7 Posted : 05 June 2012 18:07:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
messyshaw

myudeen wrote:
I don't know the laws, legislation, regulations or standards in your country, but could you define " final exit door'. However if it is not an emergency door I think you can use it
With respect, when someone asks for information/advice here, why on earth would anybody reply with a guess like this? This is a brilliant forum, especially for those who like me, work alone. But the quality of the forum is linked to the quality of the replies and this is poor. It's true, some threads request member's opinions, but not this one which specifically requires information (and not guesswork). I am sorry if I am being a bit harsh, but I would never think of replying to, say, a WAH thread in such as way as it is not my area of expertise and I would feel I could not really add much to the debate
son of skywalker  
#8 Posted : 06 June 2012 11:11:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
son of skywalker

You will have to demonstrate that the fire exit door will not be damaged e.g. warped by wind etc. If the door mechanism is affected then it will affect the ability to evacuate. Different styles of final exit fire doors and also older doors may be easily damaged by wind and water ingress. You will also have to take into consideration other legislation e.g. workplace temperature. I generally recommend that these doors are not wedged open. I have given the following advice in the past: "Fire exit doors are part of the structural means of restricting the spread of smoke and fire from within and outwith a building. Should there be a fire outwith the building a wedged open fire exit door may allow smoke and potentially fire to enter the building. This would result in a breach of Sections 53 and 54 of the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005 with inadequate provision of reasonable measures taken to reduce the spread of fire. The additional uncontrolled ventilation from a wedged open door could potentially have a direct impact on an internal fire. The building ventilation system will automatically shut down in the event of a fire to reduce the impact of air flow on a the spread of fire and smoke, however a wedged open fire exit door will result in an uncontrolled ventilation of fresh air into the building. As such these fire exit doors must be used in line with the requirements by the appropriate Fire Safety Legislation and Practical Guidance as noted below: Practical Safety Guidance for Education and Day Care for Children Premises Chapter 7: Restricting the spread of fire and smoke Doors 151 A closed door may restrict fire spread by holding back fire and smoke. …….. Fire doors are an essential part of a fire compartment and for the protection of means of escape. A self closing device is a normal feature of a fire door….. Fire Separation 154 Where buildings or parts of buildings are in different occupation this poses particular problems in terms of fire safety, as one occupier does not usually have control over the working practices of their co-occupiers. The purpose of fire separation is to restrict the spread of fire between different occupancies. 155 Where the premises adjoin or are part of a larger building, such as where it is a unit, is semi-detached or in a terrace, the potential for an outbreak of fire in the neighbouring building or occupancy ultimately spreading to the premises should be considered. The provision of fire separation will ensure that in the event of an outbreak of fire within the building, fire and smoke is inhibited from spreading beyond the area of occupation where the fire originated. Ventilation systems 163 The potential for ventilation systems to allow the spread of fire and smoke should be considered. ……. Fire Safety (Scotland) Regulations 2006 Part III Fire Safety Means of escape 13.(1) Where necessary in order to ensure the safety of relevant persons in respect of harm caused by fire, the person with duties under section 53 or 54 must ensure that routes to emergency exits from relevant premises and the exits themselves are kept free from obstruction at all times.
A closed door can restrict fire spread by holding back fire and smoke. Doors with hold open devices are linked to the fire alarm. When the fire alarm is activated these doors will close automatically thereby preventing fire and smoke from passing through and limiting the possible oxygen supply to the fire. Staff should check the operation of these doors to ensure they remain effective (doors are never wedged open). Doors should be maintained closed, especially at night, or be provided with self closing devices. Where fire doors are provided they should be capable of restricting the action of fire and smoke for not less than half an hour in accordance with the current British Standards. All fire doors should display signage indicating that they meet the criteria for resisting the spread of fire and smoke." In terms of Health and Safety Legislation: "Temperature in the indoor workplace such as a school, nursery, office etc must meet the minimum standard. For workplaces where the activity is mainly sedentary, for examples offices, the temperature should normally be at least 16oC. If work involves physical effort it should be at least 13oC. Appropriate heating must be provided to ensure these minimum temperatures are reached. In the event of the minimum temperature not being reached Personal Protective Equipment may be used but only as a last resort. Should fire exits be wedged open this would result in the temperature within the building being reduced, potentially to below the minimum temperature. As such these doors must be used in line with the requirements placed by the appropriate Fire Safety and Health and Safety Legislation as noted below: Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 All work places should comply with the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations." I hope this is of some use. SOS
messyshaw  
#9 Posted : 06 June 2012 18:02:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
messyshaw

Sorry, notwithstanding the above, wedging a final exit door open (where no other MOE is effected) is not a problem. Why is this simple question being answered with such complicated answers. SOS - much of what you have put refers to internal fire doors (door holders/door closers/limiting oxygen) what on earth has that to do with final exit doors????
redken  
#10 Posted : 08 June 2012 14:44:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
redken

http://www.shponline.co....afety-breaches-cost-asda Counsel for the prosecution, William Clegg QC, told the court that the inspection, which was carried out following a complaint, identified serious breaches to fire-safety regulations, including: •two fire-exit doors chained and locked shut; •obstruction of fire-escape routes; •combustible items obstructing fire-exit doors and escape routes; and •fire-exit doors wedged open
son of skywalker  
#11 Posted : 08 June 2012 15:09:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
son of skywalker

messyshaw When is a fire exit door not just a fire exit door? When a fire is outside and it will stop a fire gaining entry to a building. When will a fire exit door not be a fire exit door? When it cannot function. I have come across many fire exit doors (from months old to a few years old) damaged through being wedged open and therefore not being able to function as intended. In many instances a gust of wind has caught the door, twisted it, damaged the self closer and then slammed the door shut. I totally disagree with your statement that wedging open a fire exit door is not problem. They should be used for their sole purpose unless there is a very convincing argument otherwise. I should say that some fire exits can be designed to allow use for access egress, which I have no problem with. On another note nothing to do with fire safety, wedging open a door leads to a breach in security. I also like your post redken.
Safety Smurf  
#12 Posted : 08 June 2012 15:09:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

By extension of the logic behind some of the posts above, no external door should ever be left open, nor window!
Buzby888  
#13 Posted : 08 June 2012 15:34:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Buzby888

As we know all inside fire doors should never be wedged open or obstructed and as far as I am concerned neither should final exit doors, it is important that all doors and windows as much as possible are closed in the event of a fire and no-one should be delaying getting out of the building if there is a fire alarm. In essence a wedge under a door could in effect cause a trip hazard which could then lead to other complications, so I say do not wedge open any fire door including a final exit, the risks where fire are concerned are too real and far too great. Not to mention what has already been said ....damage to the door and its mechanisms.
gramsay  
#14 Posted : 08 June 2012 16:09:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
gramsay

Excluding security, what are the risks introduced by leaving open a final exit door? The door being open certainly won't delay anyone's escape, and may greatly assist by reducing or eliminating smoke-logging of escape routes. It's already been stated that cumbersome or obstructive items should not be used to prop doors - I'm sure no-one disagrees with this. Surely the reason we get so concerned about exit doors is because we have to balance the needs of ESCAPE and SECURITY? I've asked people not to prop open exit doors before, but that was because all kinds of undesirable visitors could wander in, not because I was concerned about fire spread into the building. Obviously some buildings may have particular issues in or around them, but for most premises I don't see any significant risk introduced, given adequate management.
son of skywalker  
#15 Posted : 12 June 2012 11:36:23(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
son of skywalker

I have just read in the SHP a fine against Asda for breaches. "Counsel for the prosecution, William Clegg QC, told the court that the inspection, which was carried out following a complaint, identified serious breaches to fire-safety regulations, including: •two fire-exit doors chained and locked shut; •obstruction of fire-escape routes; •combustible items obstructing fire-exit doors and escape routes; and •fire-exit doors wedged open." You can read the full article at: http://www.shponline.co....afety-breaches-cost-asda So wedging open fire exit doors is no acceptable.
son of skywalker  
#16 Posted : 12 June 2012 11:39:23(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
son of skywalker

Ooops! Just realised thet redken had posted this.
messyshaw  
#17 Posted : 12 June 2012 18:07:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
messyshaw

son of skywalker wrote:
So wedging open fire exit doors is no acceptable.
I think that is a bold statement on the back of a summary of the case. Please point out in the Fire Safety Order, where it states that final exit doors need to be kept closed. It doesn't. As has been stated on this thread, as long as the opened door does not obstruct (or have the potential to obstruct) an escape route, it's not an issue. It is simply not true that you need to keep doors closed to avoid venting a fire. If that were the case all windows would be screwed shut and all final exit doors fitted with a self closer. Neither is a final exit door part of the compartmentation (in most cases) so has no role in smoke control And Buzby - a door wedge = a trip hazard? I despair as I simply cannot accept your points of view.
martinw  
#18 Posted : 12 June 2012 19:30:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
martinw

A final exit door is not necessarily a fire door unless designated to be a fire door. If it is not designated as a fire door then it is just a door. Security door maybe, but just because it is a final exit door it does not have to be a designated fire door. Have a look at the advice below, which is bang on, as is Messy, as usual. http://www.bristol.ac.uk...edia/gn/firedoors-gn.pdf Why don't you know that? How do you benchmark the advice you are giving? The Asda link goes on about fire doors, not final exit doors. Big difference.
Safety Geek  
#19 Posted : 12 June 2012 21:08:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Safety Geek

I would say that a fire door must never be wedged open, it's there to serve an essential purpose "to prevent the spread of fire". A fire door must only be kept open where there is an automatic realise mechanism installed such as a door guard or a electromagnetic realise point. A fire door will have a BLUE fire door keep shut sign installed, this is a mandatory instruction that is require by law. Failure to undertake the instruction is a breach of the law. Barney#1
Simon Heesom  
#20 Posted : 13 June 2012 07:20:16(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Simon Heesom

Alternatively to all the above, if you apply a pragmatic approach, let them have the door open, but instill in them that some one must be accountable for removal of the wedge. And that they receive approval from the building fire warden/marshal. And that that person is responsible for ensuring that the door is shut, and they report the door as shut to the fire warden/marshal at the muster point should an incident be realised or a drill conducted.
Jake  
#21 Posted : 13 June 2012 08:48:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

martinw wrote:
A final exit door is not necessarily a fire door unless designated to be a fire door.
This is where the confusion seems to have come from in this thread. The majority of responses refer to fire doors (Blue fire door keep shut signage, self closing system, installed for compartmentation etc etc.) not final exit doors.
JohnW  
#22 Posted : 13 June 2012 13:51:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

Hmmm yes, I'm with jake, martin, messy, gramsay. The OP asked about exit doors yet half the responses talk about fire doors. THIS THREAD WAS NOT ABOUT FIRE DOORS! This thread is embarrassing. Be nice if we could start again.......
Andrew W Walker  
#23 Posted : 13 June 2012 14:07:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Andrew W Walker

For what its worth. I would have no problem in final exit doors being open- provided that common sense was applied and the exit wasn't blocked with a chair or something. We have a final exit door that is also a fire door- as it is close to an external stair- this door remains closed at all times. Did I say "common sense"????? Andy
Renny Thomson  
#24 Posted : 14 June 2012 14:42:14(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Renny Thomson

Richardson22118 wrote:
Can you wedge open a final exit door for ventilation / access - egress without incurring the wrath of the fire officer?
Quote:
Final exit Termination of an escape route from a building, giving direct access to a street or open space, where people are no longer in danger from fire.
source http://www.firelawscotland.org/files/OSG-defs.html If the final exit door can be held open safely, without damage, or creating a trip or security hazard, I'd have no objection. PS Has someone got warm enough weather as need to open the door? Where? We're still in winter weather up here.
Graham Bullough  
#25 Posted : 21 June 2012 00:58:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

The question posed by this topic was one I tended to receive from a number of my former employer's schools during the summer months. Unless having a final exit door wedged/tied open was likely to pose a significant security problem, the usual answer was that there was no problem. Far better to try to maintain good ventilation than have teachers and pupils working in stuffy classrooms, etc. Also, opening of such doors helped to ensure that they remained in readily openable condition and also that everybody was familiar with their locations. In some cases, such doors got taken into use throughout the school year as a means of reducing congestion in internal corridors. As for fire officers, I can't think of any valid grounds why any of them should be concerned about the matter. p.s. Renny T - Unless the weather is now changing significantly in Scotland, try the West Coast which has had a superb spell of warm dry weather since mid/late May. I've had two separate weeks there during that period and haven't experienced such dry conditions for a long time. :-)
mylesfrancis  
#26 Posted : 21 June 2012 08:15:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mylesfrancis

son of skywalker wrote:
The additional uncontrolled ventilation from a wedged open door could potentially have a direct impact on an internal fire. The building ventilation system will automatically shut down in the event of a fire to reduce the impact of air flow on a the spread of fire and smoke, however a wedged open fire exit door will result in an uncontrolled ventilation of fresh air into the building. SOS
Sorry, but I think there appears to be a lack of pragmatism here. In the event of the fire, I would expect pretty much all the final exit doors to be open as people will be using them to get out of the building. Are you advocating that the last person out of a door should be ensuring it is shut behind them? Is it not better to leave final exit doors open to allow access to the fire service (what could be the best entrance point for them may not be openable from the outside)?
JohnW  
#27 Posted : 21 June 2012 10:34:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

Yes i agree with myles, and remind son of skywalker that the subject is not fire doors. But in the event of a fire, even if the final exit doors are open, in a 'good' building' the fire doors INSIDE the building will be closed so ventilation via the open exit doors is not going to reach most fires?
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