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achrn  
#1 Posted : 19 June 2012 11:34:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

This is one of those which is liable to cause despair, sorry. However, it's been dropped on me, so now I need to make it go away. It's an office. People consume tea, coffee, orange squash and tap water (all supplied by the company) in mugs and glasses (tumblers) supplied by the company. Some people put other stuff, like (for example) orange juice in the glasses and cup-a-soup in the mugs. There are (ordinary domestic) dishwashers which wash the mugs and glasses every day (the cleaners load the dishwashers each evening). The glasses become slightly cloudy. This is called 'etching', though it's at a fine enough level that it can't be felt. As far as I can determine from Dr Internet this occurs when you have too much detergent for the level of dirt in the dishwasher load, and is exacerbated by too hot a wash. Our loads are obviously pretty clean - basically no grease involved - and I suspect the cleaners just whack it on a maximum wash cycle. However, someone in the workforce is vocally asserting this is a terrible health hazard, all the cloudy glasses (and probably all the other crockery too) are dripping with bacteria, everything must be thrown out. Meanwhile 'management' are asserting that we can't throw out perfectly good glasses just because they aren't sparkly clear. I can't find anything that looks particularly authoritative on the web - lots of stuff about avoiding it, but nothing about whether it's a health hazard. Does anyone know? Does anyone have a reliable looking reference as to whether glasses turned cloudy by a dishwasher are a health hazard? My inclination is that if there were nay hint that it was, I'd find it on the internet (given that according to the internet practically everything is a health hazard), and that a daily hot dishwasher wash will tend to eliminate bacteria that might fancy our glasses, but I'm not sure that's a rigorous enough approach. Please put me out of my misery, so I can return to useful and inspiring things like updating our PPE procedures. Thanks.
Seabee81  
#2 Posted : 19 June 2012 11:44:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Seabee81

Haha sorry achrn I really don't know the answer to this. If it was me I would probably advise the person making the complaint to bring their own glass in if they are unhappy with the standard of those provided. There is of course the option of providing disposable plastic cups, but there are cost and environmental implications to consider. I've worked with a few people on ships that never EVER wash out their coffee cups. They refer to the thick layer of brown grime that accumulates as "seasoning" and claim that their brew doesn't taste right without it. In fact new crew members have been know to get a colossal telling off for having the audacity to wash someone's cup!
hopeful  
#3 Posted : 19 June 2012 11:45:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hopeful

The temperature of the dishwasher will kill bacteria etc and therefore this should not be an issue. (If it was many of us would be ill all the time as I bet those with dishwashers have this in their own homes). For something definitive you may want to have a chat to your local Food Safety EHO who will be able to give you the commercial food safety approach. I hope this helps
A Kurdziel  
#4 Posted : 19 June 2012 12:06:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

There is a myth that anything “dirty” is crawling with microorganisms that are out to get you and will make you ill if you just look at them. Most of the microorganisms that cause illness are things that live in the gut and come out in the faeces. So unless you are washing the glassware in sewage this should not be a problem. Glass, even if etched is not a good growth medium for microorganisms as these things like it a bit moist and a bit warm. There are, in theory a few microorganisms that knock about the environment which might cause problems for people who are immunocompromised some way but a good daily hot wash should get rid of those. The EHO might be able to advise you and better still have a look at what is actually going on. (I am basing my opinion on what you have told us: your office could be the most squalid office on Earth, and you might have a problem). If you really want to check this out you could get some one to do some actual testing of the glassware, but that would cost you.
chas  
#5 Posted : 19 June 2012 12:12:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chas

When was the last time the filters etc were cleaned out? Failure to do this sometimes causes problems when a machine is on a rinse cycle. Also are you in a hard water area? If so the pipes may be furring up. A good and economical way of dealing with this is to put a few drops of citric acid (from a chemist) in a cycle on its own. This will help clear/clean out the pipes. Other off the shelf products are available.
Lisa Boulton  
#6 Posted : 19 June 2012 12:15:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Lisa Boulton

The mugs may be losing their glaze which may make them more porous, whether this makes them a breeding ground for bugs I don't know? but surely the hot wash cycle will kill any bacteria anyway? I know some seasoned EHO's who like a 'seasoned mug' and they always argue that the boiling hot water added to make a brew kills anything iffy anyway.
Tomkins26432  
#7 Posted : 19 June 2012 12:37:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Tomkins26432

Tell them to get over it, they can wash the mugs by hand before using them; after all they may have been sneezed on by someone, or a fly might have landed on one, or...etc. Or bring their own cups if they like. But they should let you get on with real work. Whoops bit of a rant, but I get this stuff at work and mostly it's the same people that should you suggest they tidy the floorspace around their desks so that fire routes are clear accuse you of H&S gone mad.
Lizzie H  
#8 Posted : 19 June 2012 13:35:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Lizzie H

I worked in the bar trade and catering for a long time and we always washed glasses separately from other crockery. The food and milk residues cause this "fogging" on glass by coating it. There is no health hazard associated with this, it's purely cosmetic. I'd also add to the suggestion that the dishwashers are cleaned regularly (we used to do it weekly) as accumulated gunge will make this fogging worse. Maybe you could keep one of the dishwashers solely for glasses and see how it goes? Good luck!!
Stephens25059  
#9 Posted : 19 June 2012 14:18:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Stephens25059

A typical health and safety myth - if this was an issue EHOs would deal with it at Food Hygiene visits and they don't, likewise if it was a real issue it would be all over the interweb and it isn't. If you really want to have some fun tell them how many bacteria there are on their keyboards!
chris.packham  
#10 Posted : 19 June 2012 14:42:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Stephens Better still point out to them that their own skin has a population of bacteria of between 10,000 and 100,000 per cm2! Then tell then that without these your skin would have little defence against the nasty ones that you are in contact with for most of your life as it is these 'commensal' bacteria that create the conditions on the skin surface that tends to stop the others from getting a foothold. Of course, if you then wash in an agressive anti-microbial skin cleanser you will tend to kill off your own bacteria as well as the nasties - but that is another story! Chris
Safety Smurf  
#11 Posted : 19 June 2012 14:58:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

I can appreciate the preference to drink from a glass you can see through but wouldn't use health as reason. Seriously, given how cheap supermarket own brand glasses are, why don't you just replace them once a quarter.
pl53  
#12 Posted : 19 June 2012 16:11:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pl53

Use rinse aid in the dishwasher. Its whole purpose is to stop the glasses going cloudy. A bit of salt wouldn't go amiss either.
jay  
#13 Posted : 19 June 2012 16:37:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

Refer to;- http://www.dishwasher-care.org.uk/best.html#rinse it includes info on how to deal with cloding of glassware
achrn  
#14 Posted : 19 June 2012 16:51:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Thanks all for thoughts. To confirm matters in my original post: It's not drying marks - rinse aid is irrelevant. The dishwasher gets its salt. It's not scale deposits (easily tested with with an acidinc soak - no effect on the marks). It's not clogged filters (they get cleaned out periodically). The mugs show no signs of wear, it's just glasses. It's not so bad that you can't see through the glass - it's a slight milkiness. I believe it is an etching process, and arises from over-generous detergent use and over-aggressive washing cycle, but neither of those can be readily addressed. It would be cheap to just cave in and buy new glasses, but whether it's cheap or not I object to throwing away good glasses just to shut someone up if their concern is spurious. I object to the needless waste, and management objects to the needless spending. The office is probably not the most squalid on earth. The office and office kitchens are cleaner than my kitchen at home (but I take the view that an exercised immune system is a healthy immune system). I don't believe in killer bacteria waiting to pounce from every surface that hasn't been disinfected in the last 30 seconds. I happily drink from the glasses. The vast majority of people drink from the glasses. It's just one load voice that seems to relish being heard, regardless of the message. I'm going with a report that I've investigated the issue and can't find any credible evidence for it being a health issue.
Andrew W Walker  
#15 Posted : 19 June 2012 16:54:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Andrew W Walker

And you will never get back the hours you have wasted on this... Andy
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