One for our electrical experts, we have recently lost our Maintenance Manager and are in the process of recruiting. In the interim one of our 17th edition qualified electricians has been asked to install 2 x 415v sockets next to a distribution board. He has stated that he can install them but they cannot be used as he is not qualified to test them (which our ex-Manager was). Can you confirm if this is correct and what qualification we should be putting our electricians through to prevent this happening in future?

Is there not part of the qualification curriculum that Electricians do on specific testing and certification i.e. a City and Guilds part? I know a lot of electricians that have done the job for many years and have done the appreticeship route who still fail on testing exams? As for the comments of sack him then by all means go ahead but what did his job description say, what did his contract state as responsibilities, what has been his role for the last so many years and then what about other employees who watch and then do work they are not fully confident in because they fear being sacked.

The 'lecy regs certainly state a competent person should recognise his limitations. The guy sounds competent to me if he feels its beyond his ability.

there is a seperate course for testing and inspecting without it he cannot authorise the work the problem is only about 5% of time served qualified sparkies have it

thomas, The BS2391 you refer to in this context is NOT BS2391, it is a C&G course number 2391, which is now replaced anyway. The 2391 course (was) centred on periodic inspection and testing, rather than initial verification which is what is required for new and modified installations. I am a teacher & examiner on 2391 & its replacement amongst other courses, Any competent electrician MUST be able to adequately test and inspect "his" own new installations work in accordance with BS7671, if "he" cannot then "he" is not competent to practice as an electrician. If his level of understanding is that which you report in your post, quoted here, then find another electrician, quickly before this person kills someone. I re-iterate, with regard to “a competent electrician”, to be competent “he” must be able to design, construct, inspect and test “his” own installations work in accordance with BS7671, else “he” should not be doing it. I don’t know enough about this “electricians” background to comment any more, however, it does not seem he is suitable for the work he is employed to do, as inspection and testing is part and parcel of the everyday work for a competent electrician. I don’t know where this misinformation has come from, but I suggest that you review the situation and obtain some competent advice on both the competence of the employees and the situation you find yourself in, because if this person cannot I&T then it is doubtful “he” would be classed as competent under EAWR.

The number quoted is not a course, nor a BS.

Not true Bob, if the guy is an electrician then he MUST be competent to I&T his own works. There is a lot of misunderstanding of this topic it seems.

bob, NO one has mentioned re-certification of the system of a factory. Anyway, any competent electrician must also be competent on 400v supplies, 415 is no more by the way ;) ;) ;) I don't actually CARE what his manager has told him in the past, if he was a competent electrician he must KNOW the statute law and other relevant requirements related to the work he is undertaking. Also if he is a competent electrician then he must be competent to design, install, inspect and test ALL of his own works under the scope of BS7671.

Wrong bob, they do require this. I am the PDH & QS for an NICEIC Approved Contractor. They MUST I&T their own work, this "may" be overseen by another, and, this "may" be a good idea. However, this does not detract from the fact that a competent Electrician MUST be competent to I&T their own works, it cannot be any other way if you fully understand the process. Also, the OP is NOT referring as I understand it to the QS system run by the ECA & the NICEIC, which is under significant scrutiny within the industry . Oh, please don't refer to them as Engineers because it is patently obvious from the thread that they are so far from that it is unbelievable. ;) Sorry, that is another fact that cannot be disputed.

Bob, The old Form 2 was included for commercial reasons where by large works could then legitimately be designed by different companies to the installer and the inspection & testing company. The last bit is of heavy debate in the industry as it is impossible to correctly I&T a completed installation as is often done, the installation MUST be inspected during its construction to ensure full compliance with BS7671. It also serves the purposes of large organisations whereby they may have a design team, an installation team and an I&T team. Again the latter part being of debate for the same reasons. Remember however, it is the "person responsible", i.e. take a large complex design, you may have a lead engineer with several subordinate engineers designing different sections of the installation, it would be head of the engineering design team who would sign the certificate. I say the "old" Form 2 because with the last revision this designation was removed. To turn your argument back on itself, if you refer to BS7671:2008 Amd1 2011, you will see on page 389, that it is allowed for a single person to undertake all roles? So there is no "need" or requirement under BS7671 to have different skill sets, it is recognised that a single person can be competent to undertake al roles, this person would be called an Electrician. So, BS7671 allows for the designer, constructor & I&T to be different entities, however, there is absolutely NO requirement that they are, different entities or persons. The advanced courses, the "old" 2391 & 2400 (very old) are there for competent electricians to broaden and enhance their skill set. Take them as CPD if you like, however, a qualified electrician must be able to undertake all of the requirements of BS7671. We are not talking about designing, installing & I&T'ing a new Steelworks here, this is 2 off 400V (415 is no more by the way!), 3 phase socket outlets, which sound as if they are within sight of the DB. This is a task that should be completed by a competent electrician with no problems what so ever, including any design calculations, the installation & the I&T.

I teach Inspection and testing, 17th regs, H&S occ and construction. Please, please listen to Paul. Not a lot to add but an electrician should, and in my opinion, MUST be able to test his/her own work. Otherwise it is the user who has to do it the hard way. Think of it as a driving test to prove competence. How to prove competence? Pass the exam. If not please put hands in pockets! No wonder we have so many deaths in the electrical game.