Hi Bilbo

This is an interesting point.

1) previous story - I worked on a chemical plant, Occ Health Nurse was in charge of first aid. Her background was A&E - where she worked part time.

Principal HID Inspector insisted she did an FAW and kept updated as any other first aider.... (He tried the same with our Occ Health Doctor - the resulting comments from the Doctor are unrepeatable here :)! )

2) I work as a volunteer for St John Ambulance as does my wife

My wife although they like her to be trained by St John - gets to wear grey epaulets - when wearing these she can work to the level of training provided under her Nurse registration. So she can administer drugs etc that she has not be trained to administer by St John (They don't encourage it but it would be mad if she had to sit and watch someone die on a technicality!)

So the answer - Risk assessment! Depending on experience / current skills etc etc they may be able to work as a first aider without additional training as stated in the AcOP.

I would say - the FAW course covers items about first aid in a work environment, and items such as accident book and waste that they might not be aware of!

Second - Yes CPD Is undertaken by nurses to uphold registration, but this might have very little link to any kind of life support / first aid. So I would say no - it's not enough as is might all relate to rehabilitation or elderly care.

Also first aid out side a hospital setting is very different to a busy ward with a red button!

I have waffled enough - hope that helps - PM me if you have specific questions (I teach a tad of first aid (well I hold FAWI)- and my wife is nurse, I am sure we can find better answers than my waffle above :) )

But why is that mad? I might be an expert in chemical safety, but I might never of stepped onto a construction site in my entire life??

True in that instance, but First Aid is First Aid, I'm sorry everything you learn in that course goes out the window when there is an emergency because you do the best you can with what you have at that time.

I said that but in a long winded waffly kind of way :) Thanks for a better summise...

and no I wouldn't - my wife is a member of a Facebook group called "be thankful for Nurses, we are the ones stopping the Doctors from killing you" - or words to that effect :)

WHHHHATTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who on earth taught you first aid?

I have been in some very serious first aid situations - one a fatality and my training has done me proud every time!

This is an argument some people just won't get... oh well


@HE02

Can't comment for current job - but will ask clients in more detail...

So previous work
Manufacturing job - I did it in house on an annual basis - driven by new requirement...
2 x Top Tier COMAH sites - Ongoing anyway as part of Emergency response teams training.

Sorry thread hijacked by He02 :)

Sorry,

Didn't mean to highjack it, just thought it was relevant. Whoops

Phil

First aid and nursing/doctoring are different things

One of the worst accidents I know of was in a hospital ward when a visitor fell onto a bed and was impaled in their eye by a metal object - whilst there were many nurses and doctors in the immediate [this was a number of years ago when we actually employed suitable numbers of nurses etc.] area they had to call their first aider on an urgent basis as none of them knew what to do

The point being is that just because somebody is a nurse/doctor does not mean that they are automatically a first aider nor do they need to be so we need to treat first aid as a specific subject

I've worked in many industries and am currently working in Healthcare.

I have always taken the ACOP route of the first aid needs assessment, as this will be unique to your business and locality, keeping in mind your minimum requirement to appoint someone to gain medical assistance.

When you review the ACOP's, off he top of my head, paragraph 58, there is an automatic exclusion for nurses, doctors and paramedics.

Saying that I'm aware of CQC (Healthcare regulatory body) asking for First aiders in A&E dept's which kind of makes a laughing matter of the legal requirement due to a fundamental lack of knowledge of the ACOP's and its true intention to prevent further injury, limit injury etc, preserve life.

I've had many discussions with Governance colleagues who insist you must check the nurses/doctors qualifications to verify their training has covered the requirements of an approved first aid course. In some ways I can see their point but can't help thinking its an insult to the nurses and GP's and if they were trained 20-30years ago, what are your realistic prospects of verifying this aspect.

Hence why I stick to legal demonstration of a first aid needs assessment nowadays

Hence the first aid needs assessment!

But you know what they say, laughter cures many things.

Good point though.

As far as I can see neither anybody here, nor L74 suggests that being a nurse of Dr makes them ‘automatically’ a first aider; it doesn’t. I’m sure that there would be any number of first aiders would be similarly ‘flummoxed’ by a traumatic penetrating injury to an eye.

In answer to the original question, L74 does allow for nurses to provide first aid (without having attended EFAW or FAW) if they have the necessary ‘competency’ to do so. I personally don’t know how they would specifically demonstrate their competency as I do not work in the sector, but it would make sense to me that any ‘justification’ to appoint them as a first aider in the first place ought to cover their ongoing competency requirements as well.

Ok, as Lisa has pointed out that it's Friday so – it’s a definite ‘no’ to a vet for me as I don’t know where their arm might have been ½ an hour before hand (I’ve seen All Creatures Great and Small!!!)

As for Jo Brand – errrrrrr now let me see…………………………..

So you've been run over by a bus outside a vets surgery, you have a complicated fracture of the femur and lots of blood leaking out from a gash in the same femur.

First on the scene is a Vet who says "I'm a vet but I can help".

Is it yes please or is it a polite no thank you I'll wait for a proper medical person?

I concur with canopener's thoughts in 23#. As a measure to increase the numbers of people generally who have some understanding and basic ability, I'll repeat again a common plea for first aid training to be provided to all secondary and older primary school pupils in the UK. (No apologies for having included this plea in my response to another thread a short while ago.) Furthermore, on a positive note, responders to previous threads about this matter have reported that many children and young people are keen to learn first aid, whether at school or in other settings such as youth organisations. It's far better to be reasonably prepared to deal with first aid emergencies than to either watch helplessly or panic because of ignorance.

Also I concur with other responses that nursing or medical qualifications do not include first aid training. This is based partly on knowing some nurses and various doctors over the years. Some of them agreed that they were competent in their respective specialities but knew little about first aid and either needed or had opted to have first aid training.

As an aside, when people like comedienne Jo Brand (formerly a mental health nurse) are awarded honorary doctorates, presumably they are given certificates which include the title "doctor" as do those who have carried out appropriate research to become 'doctors of philosophy' and can use the prefix 'doctor' or post-fix 'Ph.D' with their names. By contrast, when the term 'doctor' is used as a title for someone working in medicine, it is usually a customary title as such people tend to have no qualifications which include the word 'doctor'. Therefore, if someone is introduced to you as a doctor, you could ask them if they are a real doctor (i.e. holder of a Ph.D) or a medical doctor! It's best not to ask this of anyone who is about to subject you to a medical procedure, just in case they resent being asked.

Some years ago I put the above question in jest to a hospital consultant (with a proven sense of humour) who I met during a mountaineering trip. To my slight surprise he answered 'both' and explained that he had worked for Ph.D regarding his speciality some years after gaining his general MB & ChB qualifications at medical school. He added that technically he could probably style himself 'doctor doctor' but was quite happy to use 'doctor' and preferred it to 'mister' which by custom tends to be used by male medical consultants.