Rank: Super forum user 
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Speedy advice if possible please in respect of the following scenario.
Employee has a 'dizzy spell' at work falls (was kneeling at time fell approx 1/2m) bangs her ribs, off work for 7+ days. I say report, my boss says no as the accident was the dizzy spell. I say no the accident was the bruised ribs which is what is on the doctors note. Stalemate.
Please tell me am I correct in wanting to report this?
Thanks
Stuart
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Rank: Super forum user 
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stuie wrote:Speedy advice if possible please in respect of the following scenario.
Employee has a 'dizzy spell' at work falls (was kneeling at time fell approx 1/2m) bangs her ribs, off work for 7+ days. I say report, my boss says no as the accident was the dizzy spell. I say no the accident was the bruised ribs which is what is on the doctors note. Stalemate.
Please tell me am I correct in wanting to report this?
Thanks
Stuart I would report it
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Rank: Forum user
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IMO this is non-work related so not reportable
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Rank: Super forum user
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Seabee81 wrote:IMO this is non-work related so not reportable This RIDDOR is unreal to get your head around. From the org post, it says in work.....and off for 7+ days.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Seabee81 - how can it not be work related if she was at work?
The (root) cause may be non work related but the accident was at work. can you explain your thinking on that one please?
Thanks
Stuart
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Seabee81 wrote:IMO this is non-work related so not reportable What caused the dizzy spell - if random - then agree with above If her job involved awkward posture / spinning around lots / or holding breath for ages etc - then work related :)
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She complained that she was hot, had been working hard enough to break out into a sweat, the workplace was warmer than normal.
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Rank: Super forum user
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stuie wrote:She complained that she was hot, had been working hard enough to break out into a sweat, the workplace was warmer than normal. Has she ever had such a dizzy spell?? Did this occur during the hot spell we had last week? I would report it, at work and 7+ days
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teh_boy wrote:Seabee81 wrote:IMO this is non-work related so not reportable What caused the dizzy spell - if random - then agree with above If her job involved awkward posture / spinning around lots / or holding breath for ages etc - then work related :) My thoughts exactly. Just because an incident occurs in work premises does not mean it is work related. Take this as an example. A diver on one of our boats breaks one of his teeth on a piece of hard food matter when eating a salad. He's in his place of work because he is on the boat, but he did not sustain the injury while carrying out his work duties, therefore non-work related. If he slipped over and broke his tooth while he was climbing onto the dive craft then its work related. The circumstances need to be taken into account as well as the location.
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Rank: Forum user
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Personally I'd count it as reportable.
That said if you're boss feels it's not, send them an email giving your advice and reasoning. That way you've got a documented trail for your recommendation and if they still want to not declare you've covered yourself.
You can take a horse to water...
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Rank: Super forum user
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stuie wrote:She complained that she was hot, had been working hard enough to break out into a sweat, the workplace was warmer than normal. Reportable - heat is a hazard! Unless - there is always an and - a Doctor signs off that this as a separate medical issue not brought on by heat / work? (e.g. diabeties / low blood pressure) Good discussion - oh and keep the RIDDORs coming guys - I use them as a game in training called reprotable or not :) A freebie for other trainers out there!
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Rank: Super forum user
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No she had not reported such an episode before.
Thats my view too Lawlee - at work off for 7+ days as a result of falling at work.
When did RIDDOR ever take account of the root cause that is down to us to put right and where necessary the HSE to investigate based on the info given in the F2508.
My boss however is firmly in the 'other camp'.
Stu
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Rank: Super forum user
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Seabee81 wrote:teh_boy wrote:Seabee81 wrote:IMO this is non-work related so not reportable What caused the dizzy spell - if random - then agree with above If her job involved awkward posture / spinning around lots / or holding breath for ages etc - then work related :) My thoughts exactly. Just because an incident occurs in work premises does not mean it is work related. Take this as an example. A diver on one of our boats breaks one of his teeth on a piece of hard food matter when eating a salad. He's in his place of work because he is on the boat, but he did not sustain the injury while carrying out his work duties, therefore non-work related. If he slipped over and broke his tooth while he was climbing onto the dive craft then its work related. The circumstances need to be taken into account as well as the location. I read it that she was kneeling as part of her duties, unless it was for prayer time
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Cantact the HSE, give them the scenario and ask them? very simple
It's a non reportable though as far as RIDDOR is concerned
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Rank: Super forum user
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Seebee et al - she was at work doing her job when she had a dizzy spell which casued her to fall to the floor, banging her ribs on the segregation barrier on which she was kneeling (another story there as she should have been sitting and swung her legs over) as she fell. Note from GP sates something like 'rib injury'.
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I still wouldn't report it Stuie, but I seem to be in the minority. It's an interesting scenario so please let us all know what the HSE say about it, if you decide to ask them.
It also raises another interesting point about what to do as a OHS professional if the management is adament that an incident is non reportable and you disagree.
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Seabee81 wrote:I still wouldn't report it Stuie, but I seem to be in the minority. It's an interesting scenario so please let us all know what the HSE say about it, if you decide to ask them.
It also raises another interesting point about what to do as a OHS professional if the management is adament that an incident is non reportable and you disagree. have been there before!!
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Clark34486 wrote:Seabee81 wrote:I still wouldn't report it Stuie, but I seem to be in the minority. It's an interesting scenario so please let us all know what the HSE say about it, if you decide to ask them.
It also raises another interesting point about what to do as a OHS professional if the management is adament that an incident is non reportable and you disagree. have been there before!! Sorry to hog this thread, I'll make this my last post!! We run table top excercises with management which mostly deal with emergency response, who to contact etc, but sometimes we throw in a non emergency situation, like a minor injury or a hazardous condition. Together we work out what level of incident investigation and follow up would be required, which authorities would need to be notified and who would be responsible. Luckily the management here buy in to all of that.
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It's in cases such as this that we really need to pause a second and ask ourselves what is the point of RIDDOR. In very simple terms, it's about the collection of central statistics and as a trigger for enforcing officers to visit you should they have concerns over the nature of the incident. Simplified, I know - but stats and investigations are the two real key reasons for having RIDDOR. In this particular case, just what is served by reporting it? I wouldn't on two grounds - A on the face of it, it's not really caused by a failure in your undertakings and in any case the injury was secondary to the actual 'illness' and B because there isn't any value in it for the HSE, I'd imagine. We have customers feint and fall over hurting themselves. We don't bother the HSE with that stuff. Overcome by a gas release? Totally different scenario. Being AT work or a place OF work is not the only trigger. Or else we'd have to start reporting heart attacks. People often seem too preoccupied with whether it is reportable or not in some technical sense versus whether it NEED be reported. Those that need to be are usually pretty clear: failure, injury, treatment, consequences etc. But once we get into the debate over is it / isn't it, then I'd suggest that we have missed the purpose.
Jericho
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Rank: Super forum user
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*Face Palm*
- Because someone is at work does not mean an accident is neccisarily out of or in connection to work (hence medical issues are non reportable)
- The accident wasn't brusied ribs, that was the injury
- The only factor to consider is whether the collapse was due to a medical issue or due to the workplace temperature
And I agree with Seabee (unless it was really hot and that was the only reason for the collapse, though this seems unlikely).
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Rank: Super forum user
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Thanks for the advice - my boss told me not to report so i wont and will email him confirming that I am not reporting it on his say so.
Cheers
Stuart
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Rank: Super forum user
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Something similar happened at ours. Employee was hot and bothered and fainted. As they fell, they split open their head on edge of bench. Off work for 3 days (last year) so reported it under RIDDOR. as was at work and due to work. If they had not been there then they would not have fainted and split open their head.HSE not bothered, no follow up, so no big deal.
PS If someone trips up at work and injures themselves do you report it as work related or do you say, 'This could of happened anywhere so not a RIDDOR.
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Heh heh heh, I like the RAMPANT speculation here...
With the limited details it's not possible to accurately determine whether the dizzy spell was caused by a work activity or not. We can assume that this was a 'hot flush' but there's the potential that something else contributed to the 'event' that caused the injury.
So, had the IP spent a long period of time sat at a VDU? Next to a window in direct sunlight? Which is next to a faulty radiator? in a room where there's no air con or open windows? wearing 6" heels? etc, etc, etc. Underlying causes that may not be identified until the next time someone has a similar problem.
In terms of protecting the company's interests (something that many forget is part of the role of a H&S advisor) it's important to remember that these things can have a nasty habit of coming back to bite. And realistically what is the problem with reporting this as a 7+ day RIDDOR? It demonstrates that the company has a transparent policy for accident reporting and nothing to 'hide'.
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Rank: New forum user
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Hi Stuie
Have you thought of talking to the employee or their safety representative.
Regards
Andy
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Rank: Super forum user
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As tomorrow is my last day in this lovely environ - i have told my boss that I am not reporting on his say so - and copied a couple of 'others' into said email so that my rear is covered.
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Rank: Super forum user
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stuie wrote:As tomorrow is my last day in this lovely environ - i have told my boss that I am not reporting on his say so - and copied a couple of 'others' into said email so that my rear is covered. They haven't sacked you over this!!!!
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For what you have informed us of so far - non notifiable - unless of course the 'dizzy spell' was brought on by working environment e.g. excessive heat.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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I agree that it should not be reported just because she was AT work, but from what you say she was actually working strenuously and local conditions could quite easily have contributed. I’m guessing that as she has been off work for over 7 days there has been limited opportunity to investigate fully. As you don’t know if the dizzy spell was related to the work / conditions or not at this stage, then I would presume it was and so report it.
As this post is a bit late, keeping a record as you state is the best option, you are there to advise, if they don’t take your advice, their problem.
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Rank: Super forum user
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At work does NOT mean it is related to a work activity. How many times does that have to be debated??????
HOWEVER, it sounds like she is saying that she was too hot, in which case it would be work related.
BUT when did it get to a point that breaking out into a sweat was a bad thing and would cause someone to pass out??? A nation of people who can't cope with physical exertion makes me shudder!
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Yes because the HSE will be really interested in someone who fainted! (hot flush maybe? Going through menopause...ooo I'm ganna get a kick for that one).
So if you admit liability by reporting it as a RIDDOR, what would you do to stop it from happening again?
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Rank: Super forum user
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You are not admitting liability if you report what you feel is a RIDDOR incident.
HSE do feel "heat-induced illness" to be of interest, but yes we don't know if the dizzy feeling was from skipping lunch (or being forced to skip lunch).
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Aside from the various answer about whether or not this is reportable under RIDDOR, one thing I have learnt over the years is that sometimes you have to do what your boss says, even if you think that they are wrong.
The other thing is don't go out of your way to wind your boss up - I've tended to notice that they generally win. So, I would confirm with your boss that you have a difference of opinion, and leave it at that. An e mail record is always favourite. I now have an ever increasing archive of e mails on outlook.
The other thing that I would say is that wide copying in of other people into e mails isn't something that is always advisable, again it might just serve to 'wind' your boss up, and may be perceived as trying to undermine them. It might do you more 'damage' than them! Write the e mail, be polite, respectful, objective and include any justification. Save the e mail, blind copy it to home, print and take it home if you must but do take care when copying other people in; it might come back to bite you!
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Rank: Super forum user
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Just two copies one to the site manager and my boss - oh and two blind copies to me at home:-)
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Rank: Forum user 
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Stule
Wise words from Canopener.
Had a similar IP "dizzy spell" that I felt was RIDDOR at the time based on the initial incident report and did indeed report. Person was off a few days, plus shift change plus weekends etc so some time elapsed before I could meet up and eyeball them and get their version of events. I felt pressure with the report in 10 days bit but in hindsight I should have waited and been less of a boy scout.
As the investigation proceeded and more facts came to light it became more and more obvious that the reported IP fell asleep at their station due to a late night out on the tiles and then associated the "passing out" with another chemical based activity that occurred nearby to cover themselves.
HSE agreed with my investigation but it took days of work on a single incident that was in fact an industrial relations problem dressed up as safety.
My point....sometimes Stule it is prudent to keep one's powder dry to save going off half cocked.
I feel good when I end a post with a gunpowder analogy (fist pump boo ya)
Jeff
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Rank: Super forum user
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Confidence is everything redken!!!
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Just read through it, and I don't think it will clarify the issues noted on this forum, but we will have to wait and see in Oct 1013. A little concerned about them removing the requirement to report non-fatal injuries to people not at work. I understand the reasoning, but not convinced this is a good thing.
All they really need to do is give better guidance, I looked through the examples on the HSE web site the other day, and the ones they list are not really the contentious issues, in fact quite poor examples, so I guess it can only get better.
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