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Lawlee45239  
#1 Posted : 14 August 2012 11:10:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Lawlee45239

Morning all,

I need some help, recently there have been a number of cable strikes (mostly water), the guys are all trained in CAT & Genny (I know water cannot be detected), they know how to read the drawings, all sites issued with HSG47, management informed of the procedure, and in the last month there has been 3 strikes.

I just dont know what to do from here. I think its down to operatives behaviour and their attitude might be 'ah sure its only water'....

Can anyone give me advise as to where to go on this one??

Thanks
stevie40  
#2 Posted : 14 August 2012 12:11:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevie40

Newer water pipes should have the trace ribbon running through them to allow CAT scan to pick them up.

Do a detailed incident investigation to understand the events and attitudes leading up to the strike. Might indicate refresher training is needed.



Have you looked at soil picks and vacuum excavation methods? Take a look at www.vac-ex.co.uk

Some impressive kit there.
Lawlee45239  
#3 Posted : 14 August 2012 12:21:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Lawlee45239

stevie40 wrote:
Newer water pipes should have the trace ribbon running through them to allow CAT scan to pick them up.

Do a detailed incident investigation to understand the events and attitudes leading up to the strike. Might indicate refresher training is needed.



Have you looked at soil picks and vacuum excavation methods? Take a look at www.vac-ex.co.uk

Some impressive kit there.



Thanks for your reply Stevie40.

No trace ribbon on the pipe in question, drawings obtained and location of water pipes not marked up, training was carried out in the new year (this year), works are planned, and supervised, I personally think there is just a behavioural issue with the guys in site.
Its like I've hit a brick wall on the matter though, and I just wanted some advise.
Perhaps behavioural training is required.
Ron Hunter  
#4 Posted : 14 August 2012 12:57:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Perhaps the financial angle might serve to focus minds and attitudes. The bill£ for repair and costs of lost time (as well as reputational damage and impact for future work) might serve.
Short to deducting the costs from the wage packet of course...................!
From a similar perspective, maybe a financial incentive scheme would work for you?
Lawlee45239  
#5 Posted : 14 August 2012 13:01:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Lawlee45239

ron hunter wrote:
Perhaps the financial angle might serve to focus minds and attitudes. The bill£ for repair and costs of lost time (as well as reputational damage and impact for future work) might serve.
Short to deducting the costs from the wage packet of course...................!
From a similar perspective, maybe a financial incentive scheme would work for you?


you would think that the financial side would be enough to stop this, but it doesnt seem to be an issue, repairs are done, and nothing is said, I have had enough, as I feel these water strikes are warnings of what could happen, but no-one else (at present) is thinking along my lines, I'm having a meeting on site tomorrow with the PM to discuss in full what is going on, and then I'm tackling the MD, I can shout, but sometimes the MD's shout seems to be heard better
firestar967  
#6 Posted : 14 August 2012 13:42:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
firestar967

Does sound a concern to me as well as how long before they hit something that isn’t water. If they are using safe digging practices then they should not be getting so many especially if they know the service is about (yes I know the plans are very unreliable but there are always other ways to guess were the service is – markers, previous signs of excavations, etc.).

Are they doing the damage by hand tools or plant? (if plant, why, when working where a service may be they should be hand digging).

I would check up on how they are marking up the services and that they are using safe digging practices.
Lawlee45239  
#7 Posted : 14 August 2012 13:48:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Lawlee45239

firestar967 wrote:
Does sound a concern to me as well as how long before they hit something that isn’t water. If they are using safe digging practices then they should not be getting so many especially if they know the service is about (yes I know the plans are very unreliable but there are always other ways to guess were the service is – markers, previous signs of excavations, etc.).

Are they doing the damage by hand tools or plant? (if plant, why, when working where a service may be they should be hand digging).

I would check up on how they are marking up the services and that they are using safe digging practices.


I am so worried that something will happen, I have been told that everything was in place, and trial holes were done, and they still managed to hit these pipes, tomorrow will tell a lot though, as this is 3 strikes in a month, thats not on at all. and its on one site. perhaps the gang need a shake up, or managment.

stevie40  
#8 Posted : 14 August 2012 15:14:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevie40

Insurers look at attritional losses and expceptional losses.
Attritional is the regular, up to 30k property damage and injury type claim. Exceptional is the £100k plus injury once in a blue moon (for that client).

When we look at premium and claims history we look at the attritional stuff. Claim frequency is a huge indicator as to how good a risk is.

So, if these service strikes are being picked up by your insurers, you can bet the premium will swing upward next year plus they will probably apply a larger property damage excess. This means you end up self insuring for the service strikes and it comes out of the firms own bank balance.

So, get the FD on side and then hopefully the MD will follow, they all listen to their FD's more than H&S bods.
NickH  
#9 Posted : 14 August 2012 15:19:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
NickH

stevie40 wrote:
get the FD on side and then hopefully the MD will follow, they all listen to their FD's more than H&S bods.



Possibly the most accurate statement on here for a while.
JohnV  
#10 Posted : 14 August 2012 15:34:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
JohnV

Hi Lawlee, you say training was carried out this year, but like Stevie I'm wondering if it needs to be repeated. How good was the training in the first place? I would think that if the guys really understood what could go wrong if they struck a cable at high voltage they would be much more likely to follow the right procedures. Nobody wants to be vapourised do they?? Was it validated training given by a reputable recognised provider? Did they fully understand the practicalities of what they should be doing and why? Might be worth testing this hard on your visit tomorrow as well as bending the senior guys ear.
jontyjohnston  
#11 Posted : 14 August 2012 16:22:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jontyjohnston

Hi Lawlee, for what its worth.

We have just finished laying a high voltage cable between Ireland & Wales with about 40km buries in roads in Wales and the same in Ireland. We had a big problem with the contractor hitting services all over the place and all the investigations and trend analysis pointed to 2 things:

1. The crews were all trained and had all the right equipment but choose to ignore the method statements.
2. They were paid per meter, i.e. Benefit from pushing progress outweighed minor repair costs.

I'm pretty sure you will find this is a behavioural issue, might also be condoned by supervisor so you will want to check that out.
tony.  
#12 Posted : 14 August 2012 18:52:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
tony.

Was a permit to dig issued?
Who filled in the permit?
If so was the area checked for services, if so it would have been prudent to hand did.
If no services and the area was dug by a machine, was there a man watching the bucket to assist the driver
If it was a machine did it have a toothed bucket or a smooth bucket.
Lets call it a service strike than a cable strike when it was a water pipe.



tony.  
#13 Posted : 14 August 2012 19:01:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
tony.

Forgot to say, if they have had 3 strikes, make it a disciplinary offence for a service
We did this years ago and service strikes dropped to an all time low.
Of course no one then wanted to be responsible for scanning anything, but thats a different story.
Our service strike record were part of our tender process, so it was explained to everyone,that if we continued to hit services, we wouldnt win any work, and we wold all be out of a job.
Service strike paperwork generated so much paperwork it was un real due this affecting winning work
Gooch39798  
#14 Posted : 14 August 2012 20:05:51(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Gooch39798

Plenty of good advice above, if I could just add, when digging trial holes they should keep going until they have located the service. The other consideration could be ground penetration radar,
Evans38004  
#15 Posted : 15 August 2012 10:47:48(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Evans38004

I'm now in this trade too (but water) and we regularly strike services 7 since April gas / electricity (not live) & telecom (regularly 2-6" below the surface, or even under an inch of tarmac. No major problems / minor injuries yet - some delays, but no big deal.

In my short time, I've learnt that site plans are poor - have you tried getting plans out-of-hours from BT? If so were you successful?

We regularly dig up old iron water pipes and asbestos is very common and I've even seen a roman wooden water pipe!! We've kept 2 x 10' ones in our offices - doubt whether they were picked up by CAT scanning !

We retrain our guys every 3 years + tool box talk every 6 months + daily / pre-use CAT scanner tests - we really do trust to due diligence by the small teams & always interview the teams post incident.

I'd be interested to know if anyone uses ground penetration radar - especially for small jobs (a team may do 4/5 digs / day - sometimes unplanned, so forget "Permit to Dig"). Where would these be used? Can't believe utility companies employ personnel bright enough to dig & use radar.
tony.  
#16 Posted : 15 August 2012 21:38:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
tony.

Evans 38004

Why should we forget about permit to dig?
Its a valid way of controlling work, used with ms/ra across industries

Tony
Evans38004  
#17 Posted : 16 August 2012 07:08:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Evans38004

Apologies Tony,

The ... forget "Permit to Dig"... was not intended for all industries; for most non-utilities industries I would advocate it wholeheartedly. I was trying to imply that the "Permit to Dig" is not always appropriate to certain utilities companies, such as ours (water) when a team has to do a number of small jobs every day and/or respond to emergency call outs to repair leaks. For these we rely on a dynamic risk assessment by the members.

Larger & planned works always require a "Permit to Dig" - where then project engineer and supervisor can be called upon to review the work area in advance
Lawlee45239  
#18 Posted : 16 August 2012 10:45:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Lawlee45239

Morning all,

went to site yesterday, its always better to see the area yourself.

The water pipes didnt have tracer in them, there was a permit in place, drawings were obtained, services all located, hand dug to expose, and works continued, the issues arose when there was junctions and branches off.

The guys are trained, CAT is in date, and the training provider is the provider/ servicer of the CATs, I rang them this morning for refresher training to be conducted next week.

Management dont want to go down the route of disciplinary action, so its going to have to be the retrain and police and monitor.

Thanks again everyone
prodigal  
#19 Posted : 17 August 2012 11:24:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
prodigal

Hi lawlee,

I am assuming that your guys are striking plastic/PPE water service rather than mains. Reasons being that these services are not normally listed on plans and plastic are untraceable with CAT/Genny. Cast iron and other metallic pipes should be able to be picked up by CAT and Genny on Radio mode if used correctly as these materials do emits radio waves which can be picked up by the Genny. In our own company experience has shown that most of the guys don’t normally bother to use their Genny’s to trace services and this contributes towards a lot of the strikes we have. Another issue is safe digging practices; again not all teams follow HSG47 therefore we have safety behavioural issues. To minimise the potential of utility strikes we put our teams through COP 2 (developed by the electric board back then) which establish the safe digging practices to employing when excavating near live electrical apparatus and the 0.5m restriction cannot be enforced; mechanical aid has to be used to break the surface – tarmac, concentrate, hard ground, etc. COP 2 requires the guys to mark 300mm up to the outer most utility service identified (by plans, CAT & Genny, etc) and marked out on the ground. This 300mm is the limit to which power tools are allowed from the outer most service identified. Operates are then permitted to break the surface up to the 300mm marked using powered tool and then use hand tools to ‘tunnel under’ surface of the 300mm marked and excavated by hand until they physically established the location and dept of the service they identified. We require our teams to employ this technique along with HSG547 safe digging practices for all excavations activities but the findings from many utility strikes investigations reveals that they often don’t, however whenever they do our strike rates fall dramatically.
Lawlee45239  
#20 Posted : 17 August 2012 12:21:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Lawlee45239

prodigal wrote:
Hi lawlee,

I am assuming that your guys are striking plastic/PPE water service rather than mains. Reasons being that these services are not normally listed on plans and plastic are untraceable with CAT/Genny. Cast iron and other metallic pipes should be able to be picked up by CAT and Genny on Radio mode if used correctly as these materials do emits radio waves which can be picked up by the Genny. In our own company experience has shown that most of the guys don’t normally bother to use their Genny’s to trace services and this contributes towards a lot of the strikes we have. Another issue is safe digging practices; again not all teams follow HSG47 therefore we have safety behavioural issues. To minimise the potential of utility strikes we put our teams through COP 2 (developed by the electric board back then) which establish the safe digging practices to employing when excavating near live electrical apparatus and the 0.5m restriction cannot be enforced; mechanical aid has to be used to break the surface – tarmac, concentrate, hard ground, etc. COP 2 requires the guys to mark 300mm up to the outer most utility service identified (by plans, CAT & Genny, etc) and marked out on the ground. This 300mm is the limit to which power tools are allowed from the outer most service identified. Operates are then permitted to break the surface up to the 300mm marked using powered tool and then use hand tools to ‘tunnel under’ surface of the 300mm marked and excavated by hand until they physically established the location and dept of the service they identified. We require our teams to employ this technique along with HSG547 safe digging practices for all excavations activities but the findings from many utility strikes investigations reveals that they often don’t, however whenever they do our strike rates fall dramatically.


Yes they are plastic, and not mains. The content of your msg is very good, thanks, and I shall look into this in more depth now. Thanks for your advice.
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