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Zimmy  
#1 Posted : 12 August 2012 10:47:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

A close friend of mine, working for a well known call center, has been treated (in my opinion) very badly. This has resulted in a breakdown. It appears that there has been (again in my opinion) a catastrophic failing of management here. Without ever having a written warning or disciplinary he has been subjected to other people getting promotion despite having a tremendous sales record. It seems that due to personality differences with a few members of middle management others with poor sales have had preferential treatment. This has lead to work overload and depression. Management have called him such choice names as 'towel salesman' and a few other things to boot. The derogatory remakes have been dismissed as 'said in fun'. ''fun is a funny word to use when the person on the receiving end has just returned to work after a breakdown! Anyway... How do I move this forward? Acas? Cheers Rob
John M  
#2 Posted : 12 August 2012 11:36:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
John M

Take him to see a lawyer versed in employment law. jon
Canopener  
#3 Posted : 12 August 2012 11:47:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Canopener  
#4 Posted : 12 August 2012 11:49:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Oops - finger trouble. Bullying and harassment cases can be very difficult to deal with for both the person concerned, anyone trying to help then and the employer. I have been there in all 3 ‘roles’. Evidence as always is the key to trying to resolve the issue, such as keeping a diary etc. You should normally use and exhaust the internal procedures such as using the grievance procedure before moving this onto to ACAS or going straight to a lawyer. If your friend wants to go ‘formal’ with the case, then he or she needs to be prepared for what could be an ‘unpleasant’ experience. That isn’t to say that they shouldn’t but they do need to be prepared.
Zimmy  
#5 Posted : 12 August 2012 13:01:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

Cheers Canopener. Thanks
Lawlee45239  
#6 Posted : 13 August 2012 14:11:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Lawlee45239

zimmy wrote:
A close friend of mine, working for a well known call center, has been treated (in my opinion) very badly. This has resulted in a breakdown. It appears that there has been (again in my opinion) a catastrophic failing of management here. Without ever having a written warning or disciplinary he has been subjected to other people getting promotion despite having a tremendous sales record. It seems that due to personality differences with a few members of middle management others with poor sales have had preferential treatment. This has lead to work overload and depression. Management have called him such choice names as 'towel salesman' and a few other things to boot. The derogatory remakes have been dismissed as 'said in fun'. ''fun is a funny word to use when the person on the receiving end has just returned to work after a breakdown! Anyway... How do I move this forward? Acas? Cheers Rob
Oh bless your friend, nothing worse than seeing those who dont deserve it getting higher, but that is the rat race we are in, after action is taken, would your friend not gain from leaving that role (or company)
David Bannister  
#7 Posted : 13 August 2012 15:30:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Your friend appears to be in a no-win situation as his problem is not with one individual but "a few members of middle management" Any action will have a result that is not beneficial to him: either he wins but achieves an even more disliked position or he loses and achieves an even more disliked position. Not good, not correct nor agreeable but reality. Time to change jobs.
johnmurray  
#8 Posted : 13 August 2012 19:09:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Is he in a union ? If not, get him to join one. It's worth it for the free legal help. In times like these with the gov happy to kill-off legal aid and no-win-no-fee-no-coffee (and workers) a union is a great help. Try UNITE !
Canopener  
#9 Posted : 13 August 2012 21:13:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

I agree that being a member of a union can be a great help, and I am myself a long standing union member . However, a couple of things. 1. Most (maybe all) unions won't deal with an issue prior to them accepting membership, and rightly so, or we'd all sit back until we had a problem and only then join to get the help and benefits of membership. Join by all means, and I do generally encourage people to do so, but don't do so with the 'automatic' expectation of help for a historical case; you might be disappointed. 2. Getting legal advice, whether directly from an employment law solicitor or through a union is not in my experience necessarily a 'passport' to resolving all bullying cases. One of the important things is that the person making the 'complaint' understands what the potential 'risks' (oops there's the 'r' word) are to them. As David has said, they can be a 'no win' situation, in fact they can a 'lose' situation if not handled correctly and with sensitivity and 'understanding'. I have been involved in all aspects of bullying cases and raising a case formally, can be a deeply unpleasant experience, is not for the faint hearted and may be limited in the results that it achieves; in fact it might achieve the opposite to what the person expects. That is not to say that it shouldn't be tackled. Bullying is a legitimate health and safety concern, it can be very damaging and have a profound effect on peoples mental and emotional well being. There are a number of other ways to tackling bullying depending on the circumstances including mediation, counselling etc. However, as David has already said, sometimes the reality is that you may be in a situation that you are unlikely to win, even if you 'win' if that makes any sense and unfortunately sometimes the answer for the benefit of the persons mental health, is to 'move on'. That might be 'unpalatable' but sometimes the reality is. Sorry, conscious that I am rambling a bit!
Zimmy  
#10 Posted : 14 August 2012 07:30:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

Thanks team Rob
KieranD  
#11 Posted : 14 August 2012 10:30:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
KieranD

Zimmy Your request for help started with this account: "Without ever having a written warning or disciplinary he has been subjected to other people getting promotion despite having a tremendous sales record. It seems that due to personality differences with a few members of middle management others with poor sales have had preferential treatment. This has lead to work overload and depression. Management have called him such choice names as 'towel salesman' and a few other things to boot. The derogatory remakes have been dismissed as 'said in fun'. ''fun is a funny word to use when the person on the receiving end has just returned to work after a breakdown!" One serious problem is that what you report is a mix of relatively objective statements of fact and of interpretations, not only by your friend and by his co-workers at different levels, but also by yourself. What follows is a variety of options along the spectrum ranging from legal challenge, union support to leaving the company. None of the interpretations offered take account of the cultural complexity of the situation described. Curiously, nobody at all has mentioned the option of negotiating exit from the company on an agreed basis. Why in heavens name not? As a chartered safety/health practitioner, qualified counsellor, registered coaching psychologist and chartered psychologist, I've assisted many employees to achieve this reasonable goal. Unless your friend does this - perhaps with smart help from a coach skilled in interpreting such social situations - sadly he risks further AVOIDABLE psychological harm and/or serious financial loss. There is no law or regulation that obliges him to suffer along these lines.
NLivesey  
#12 Posted : 14 August 2012 11:44:06(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NLivesey

KieranD - The wording of you post concerns me especially where you opt to use SHOUTING capitals to put emphasis on a statement that could be considered scaremongering. Zimmy's asked for advice and the advice that the previous posters has offered is absolutely sound. So, where you may be 'exhasberated' by what you're reading, it's not the unsound course of action you may think it is. Zimmy - Fully sympathise with the problem you face, I had a similar situation earlier in the year and even living the events 'vicariously' can be tough. I'd agree with the posts that refer to seeking further advice from unions and solicitors. From my personal experience I found the ACAS hotline to be a great source of information, much better to be able to discuss an issue rather than trying to work it out from reading a document. The other thing I'd recommend is using the HSE tools for stress management in the workplace and the HSG218 (I think that's right). It's got some good pointers for prepping/setting the case before raising the issue with through the company mechanism. The other thing you need to bear in mind is to stick rigidly to the company policy for harassment. Play by their rules (chances are they won't be) and if this does end up in tribunal then you'll be in a strong position. In terms of action at this point, well, the first thing that needs to happen is that your friend raises a complaint of harassment to their line manager or HR manager. It's usually recommended that this is verbal initially but I'd suggest that this is also backed up by an email confirming the details. The your friend needs to start keeping a work diary that details the who's/what's/where's and also any witnesses to the bullying. I'd urge caution here though, it needs to be specific to the harassment so that no allegation against breaches of DPA can be raised in the event that they work in such an environment. My final word is along the lines of what's already been said. This may be a no win situation. Regardless of how much you want to fight it for your friend you may find that they don't want to rock the boat any more than already rocked. In the case I helped with they did fight eventually and won, but they still handed their notice in a few weeks later and sought other employment. Unfair and tough to see happen but ultimately their call. Good luck with it, if you need some more specific pointers drop me a PM.
Zimmy  
#13 Posted : 14 August 2012 18:33:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

Many, many thanks for all the above. I shall port again with the result. I really appreciate this. Cheer team. Rob
Zimmy  
#14 Posted : 15 August 2012 19:11:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

I do believe that I have proved, or at least shown that the company in question has catastrophically failed in its duty of care for the person involved as they, the 'health and safety' department, according to the company notes, failed to spot the change in character, style, mood and conduct as the stress levels built to the point of snapping. The manager called over to see my friend today, looked through what I had written and down and left promising great things. I live in hope. Again, thank you all
tony.  
#15 Posted : 15 August 2012 21:53:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
tony.

How can the elf and safety dept be responsible for failing to spot these issues. Did he ask for help Did he ask for feedback Did he do the above in writing or emails? People arent mind readers after all.
johnmurray  
#16 Posted : 16 August 2012 07:23:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

He'll be employment toast anyday. Call centres don't want wishy-washy handwringers. If they can't manage the pressure, get them out.
NLivesey  
#17 Posted : 16 August 2012 10:18:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NLivesey

johnmurray wrote:
He'll be employment toast anyday. Call centres don't want wishy-washy handwringers. If they can't manage the pressure, get them out.
John, woebetide any workplace that would go anywhere near disciplinery action against someone who's suffered mentally. Think you'll find that they're covered by the EA under disability. It's an easy statement to make not knowing the circumstances but what you've written is just idicative of the attitudes that people in this situation have to suffer. Pressure in the workplace is a given, but excessive, unmanaged pressure is a hazard that will have ill effects of those subjected to it. The other thing to bear in mind is that where someone has had time off work due to stress or breakdown then the employer has a duty of care to ensure that the employee is supported in their return to work. There's case law to support this as well (Walker Vs Northumberland CC).
sean  
#18 Posted : 16 August 2012 10:35:58(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

NLivesey stress is not covered under the EA, stress is a reaction to undue pressure and manifests its way differently in people, loss of appetite, not sleeping well etc... etc.... I am going through a similar situation to Zimmys friend, I have had an occupational health report done which confirms I am not covered, it would have to be severe stress leading to depression and medication over a long period of time with no improvement before it might be recognised but as you are aware it is an "opinion" and unless you are prepared to go the whole hog to an ET stress will probably not be covered under the EA
David Bannister  
#19 Posted : 16 August 2012 10:46:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Employment law (and h&s law) is quite removed from the reality of many workplaces. Whilst responsible employers and strong TUs can mean that good practices are in place and followed, many (most?) employers will simply find reasons to get rid of employees who don't fit with their expectations. Some will go to tribunals and win, the majority will lick their wounds and go away. Sad but true in my experience.
walker  
#20 Posted : 16 August 2012 11:56:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

david bannister wrote:
Employment law (and h&s law) is quite removed from the reality of many workplaces.
Quite so. Its fine spouting the theories, as many do on here, but the reality is far removed. I used to live in region that relied on several call centres as major employers and what happened to the poor folks working there was a disgrace. Turnover was massive, I know one chap who lasted 3 days & then of course lost benefits for months afterwards.
Zimmy  
#21 Posted : 16 August 2012 12:51:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

Try 'duty of care'. And note #16 is downright offensive and pointless. Shows lack of understanding and not knowing how close to me the person is ...For friend try son! and a son who is an accomplished martial arts exponent to boot so lay off the handwringers if you were to come right out and talk like that here or anywhere else then for one reason or another you may well have a problem standing. RA that! When someone is having a breakdown indicators are obvious except to the person having the breakdown. God help us all. H&S pros? Yea right. I have had posts taken off here for less than NOTE 16..but I bet this gets pulled.
NickH  
#22 Posted : 16 August 2012 12:57:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
NickH

zimmy wrote:
And note #16 is downright offensive and pointless.
Quite so. Breakdowns and/ or depression are hard to detect, and often even harder for people to admit to - that really does take a lot of courage. Scenario's such as in the OP should never be ridiculed or belittled.
walker  
#23 Posted : 16 August 2012 12:59:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

zimmy I think John ' #16 was trying to articulate what the call centre bosses think rather than what he thinks. Certainly the ones I was aware of were obnoxious bullies but thet were singing the company song.
NLivesey  
#24 Posted : 16 August 2012 13:13:34(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NLivesey

walker wrote:
david bannister wrote:
Employment law (and h&s law) is quite removed from the reality of many workplaces.
Quite so. Its fine spouting the theories, as many do on here, but the reality is far removed. I used to live in region that relied on several call centres as major employers and what happened to the poor folks working there was a disgrace. Turnover was massive, I know one chap who lasted 3 days & then of course lost benefits for months afterwards.
I'd question anyone who says that this type of case isn't worth fighting and, from what I read in the last few posts, can't be fought and won using legislation and policy. I'm also surprised that people are willing to admit defeat on such a fundamental health issue that faces many people. Any of the advice I've given is more than theory, I've used it effectively on a number of occaisions and it's nothing more than what we should be doing day to day in a H&S role. Research and the application of the company policy goes a long way in my experience. If you tell a company that they have/are failing to adhere to their own standards and point out the potential consequences people will start to listen. If nothing else i've always found that by pitching it in the right way you can put the fear of god into those who are causing the issue and often this is the start to resolving the problem.
walker  
#25 Posted : 16 August 2012 13:22:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

I never suggested it wasn't worth fighting. I hope Zimmy can master resources to dribve these scum back under the stone they came from. Its just what I observed is that these companies seem to hold all the aces.
johnmurray  
#26 Posted : 16 August 2012 16:50:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

I just love it when people think they're going to wander into the ET, state their case, and wander back into work. Reality check: It's a long route. Nothing goes to ET without going through "arbitration". Solicitors DO NOT WANT losing cases.....if your chance of winning is less than 4 out of 5 then you are not going to get a freebie solicitor....and union solicitors are paid by the union, who also don't want too many losers. I won an ET case that was as near to 100% as you are going to get, and my union solicitor tried to palm me off. If the company want you out, then out you are going to be. There are a rake of companies quite willing to arrange it for a fee. Equalities act ? Another comedy statement ? If it has gone so far that the employee is on the edge of mental breakdown, then walking down the road immediately may be the best choice from HIS viewpoint for HIS future.
jay  
#27 Posted : 16 August 2012 17:24:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

Get professional advice from a employment law solicitor that is based on your individual case circumstances and then if required have a case that is based on "facts" that can be proven by documentation/reliable witnesses. Otherwise, the reality is that employers tend to have an upper hand. Some solicitors may provide a free initial consultation.
Zimmy  
#28 Posted : 16 August 2012 18:43:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

Sorry JM, I may have miss read the note 16. Rob
johnmurray  
#29 Posted : 17 August 2012 16:58:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Everyone should be entitled to a free 30-minute consultation under the law societies legal advice scheme.
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