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wclark1238  
#1 Posted : 21 August 2012 10:48:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
wclark1238

Engineers have attended site to resolve an issue with a pump that is leaking. Client claims this failure to be within the warranty period so is expecting no bill. Engineer arrives and is shown to job and some 'genius' has installed them at height - must be about 8 to 9 feet off of the ground - access is unbelievably restricted by the positioning of the pumps in relation to pipework and the fabric of the building. I've now to write a missive advising our client of our unwillingness to engage and train a specialist team of engineers with added skills in high-wire balancing in order to be able to deal with this ridiculous installation. I'm thinking that pointing out the failings in the original design with respect to CDM regs (duties of designers) is my best bet but is there some other legislation/guidance that is even more relevant to this kind of problem?
Zimmy  
#2 Posted : 21 August 2012 11:24:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

For what it's worth, in my humble opinion the installation should have been designed with access for maintenance in mind. It seems like a failure in the initial design/CDM stage etc. The engineers and designers are at fault and this may well be a 'latent defect'. Rob
Stedman  
#3 Posted : 21 August 2012 11:56:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Stedman

How good are the original drawings and do they show where the pump should be installed? If the pump is located away from where it is identified on the drawing, then it is a contractor CDM issue. If the drawings does not identify the best location of the pump, then it is a Designer CDM issue, however my experience when it comes to M&E is the Designers usually do one thing however because of time constraint and the pressure of working around other trades, contractors usually change the design. Afterwards you usually find the M&E Contractor will adamantly deny being a Designer under the CDM Regulations as they do not have the necessary PI insurance! I would simply get the drawings from the H&S File or O&M Manual and get the Principal Contractor to resolve this issue under their warrantee. Finally what access has the CDM-C identified within the H&S File?
Ron Hunter  
#4 Posted : 21 August 2012 12:54:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

CDM may or may not have been referenced in the design and construction of that installation, but I'd personally avoid unecessarily irking your client or inflaming a difficult situation by pointing him at various regulatory requirements. You have valid commercial reasons for not wanting to do this work (and you're presumably not operating under any warranty condition) - why not just stick with that?
Forza  
#5 Posted : 21 August 2012 13:00:45(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Forza

Good day just afew points to consider; 1.How old is the building, what type of use is the building school, NHS, Manufacturing etc 2. Is the pump to the correct spec as outlined in design or was a design change made during the project due to time/cost savings etc. not always noted in spec change?? 3. IF the M&E company fitted the pump someone will have signed this off before building handover? 4. Check the O&M file has the maintenance PPM's been followed by the client as like a new car if you do not service it inline with manufacturers guide then voids warranty, incur all repair costs. 5 Question design fine but do not start looking to lay blame at one door step you never find that, in the end CDM C advice client M&E nor PC will have taken ownership for final design it will go back to the clients agent to approve sign off?? , after all the building has been handed over for use and signed off, I would also check defect reports outstanding at handover was pump noted there ?? Just the above helps resolve issue.
wclark1238  
#6 Posted : 21 August 2012 13:56:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
wclark1238

My employer is the manufacturer (of the pump). Our direct client is the distributor who we supplied the pump to. The end-user has now claimed for a warranty repair through the distributor who in turn have asked us to attend site to conduct the repair. The site falls under the auspices of the local authority. With regard to many of the specific questions asked in response to my original post I'm afraid that I don't have answers for them. Our first attendance to site was last week, we were never engaged to commission these pumps - must have been commissioned by others - so we had no sight of the site (!!) when it was in the 'build' phase. We've just dropped onto it now that it has been fully handed over (perhaps several months ago for all I know) and is a working crematorium. I take the point that someone will have 'signed off' on the build. Had we commissioned this pump-set then I hope that our engineer would have pointed out at that time that future maintenance on the pump-set would be at best problematic and at worst impossible. As it is we didn't commission so had no opportunity to advise of our concerns until tasked to carry out a repair.........someone 'signed it off' but I doubt that they will/would be able to offer any input as to how this set is maintainable in its current position. I'm certainly not trying to unnecessarily antagonise an already awkward situation. End-user is 'kicking off' at the distributor because our engineers 'walked away'. I'm just looking for 'chapter and verse' so that I can give the background to the distributor to justify our actions and ensure that any anger is directed back down the chain to where the original failings might have been - either design or construction. My current stance is to advise that we will not attempt to repair the pump in its current position. If the end-user wants to engage others to demount the pump-set and deliver it to ground level then we'll happily reattend to replace mechanical seal(s) so that others can replace the pump-set into its lofty perch afterwards. Thanks for the pointers and input, you've mostly confirmed my suspicions that CDM is the relevant regulation at play and it's the one to reference when attempting to make the distributor understand that someone really is supposed to consider the H&S of maintainers when designing and building these installations.
Ron Hunter  
#7 Posted : 21 August 2012 17:10:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

You could of course (quite reasonably) decide that the costs of access equipment, specialist assistance etc. are not covered by warranty and quote accordingly for these additional matters?
boblewis  
#8 Posted : 22 August 2012 12:31:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Section 6 HASAWA is actually your start point as CDM merely reinforces the act. The client actually needs to bring the installing contractor back to site, or the PC if it was a Notifiable job. Your duty extends to a warranty on the equipment when properly installed, maintained and used. You also need evidence of the commissioning engineers comissioning records to ensure they match your requirements. Contractor designed procedures are not that unknown. Bob
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