Hi all,

This will interest those of you in housing more than most (I hope). I recently read the post pasted below from HSE and their Myth-busting campaign. I would like to gather some opinion on:

1 Do you agree with the statement?
2 Is this a poor attempt at distancing themselves from a controversial topic that is not enforced by them?
3 Have the HSE added to the already existing confusion surrounding the issue of fire extinguishers in blocks of flats?
4 What about he recent LGG guidance released on this very subject?

......
Case 30 - Housing association removed fire extinguishers, door mats and wall signs for health and safety reasons
Issue
A housing association has ordered the removal of fire extinguishers, door mats and wall signs from a block of flats saying that health and safety rules prevent them being there.

Panel decision
There are no health and safety regulations which apply here and it is hard to understand how anyone could sensibly use "health and safety" as a reason to remove fire extinguishers. Some mats may present a slipping or tripping hazard but this can easily be addressed by explaining what can and can't be used rather than a blanket ban on all mats.

There is no "Flakey advice from HSE on fire extinguishers" within the Panel's decision.

I am happy with the HSE's advice.

I believe it is aimed at those who attempt residential fire risk assessments without the correct level of competence, or at least, the right level of riks based flexibility.

Achieving a 'sterile' protected route does not necessarily mean removing door mats, posters and pot plants. But some 'assessors' have advised this in the past.

I am going to be slated for this, but I have found that it's quite often H&S professionals and/or operational firefighters who somewhat over extend themselves to fire safety work, only to find they out of their depth, so resort to over prescriptive control measures to protect them and not the residents.

Such excessive measures make the whole H&S industry look like a bunch or morons, so I welcome the HSE's lead with their myth-buster approach and long may it continue

Some years ago for a previous employer we had H&S leads in our services, which were distributed across the whole of England. One of them had got a bee in her bonnet about fire, and by the time I caught up with her she had purchased nine fire-extinguishers for a normal three bedroom house. What she intended to do with them I don't know.

Fire extinguishers eh? And HSE's jurisdiction over them. Well, as has been said, for almost all premises they have none. Provision of first aid fire-fighting equipment is something to be decided as part of the Fire Safety Risk Assessment, and I can see circumstances where it could be decided that extinguishers should be removed from parts of a building, or even a whole building if fire engineering is used.

I'd like to take them out of our shops and just get everybody out in the event of a fire (any body seen the Threshers fire video where the shop-worker sets the CO2 extinguisher off in her face), but my team won't let me. They point out that there wouldn't be anything to prop doors open with if we did,

John

Most of the guidance that I refer to with regard to the common areas of blocks of flats all say that it is generally an exception to the rule that extinguishers are present.

The general reasoning for this is lack of training of potential operators and potential for damage due to misuse/ vandalism compromising sdafety in the event someone tried to use one - all of which makes perfect sense to me.

Re Mythbusters - it is a myth that they are all 'HSE'!!

The Panel is chaired by the HSE Chair Judith Hackitt, with HSE Board member Robin Dahlberg as the Vice-Chair and.........

..............they are supported by a pool of independent members who represent a wide range of interests. This includes small businesses, public safety, trade union, the insurance industry and many outside interests where day-to-day common sense decisions on risk management are made.

www.hse.gov.uk/contact/myth-busting.htm

Peter - this is one of the pieces of legislation that I referred to.

Section 21 on P. 30 states:

21.3 It is rare for there to be a need for fire-fighting equipment to be used by people present
in the common parts of blocks of flats. It is, nevertheless, usually provided in plant
rooms and other such rooms, for use by the staff and contractors.

21.4 The provision of fire extinguishers and other forms of fire-fighting equipment in common
parts for use by residents is problematic. It is not expected that residents should need
to tackle a fire in their flats to make their escape. Indeed, to obtain a fire extinguisher
located in the common parts for this purpose would involve the person leaving their flat
in the first place.

Therefore, I still don't see the HSE advice regarding fire extinguishers as 'flakey'.

Numerous stakeholders were part of the working party that developed this document, including the Chief Fire Officers' Association, the Office of the Chief Fire and Rescue Adviser and the DCLG, so it is not without merit.