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Azza  
#1 Posted : 14 September 2012 15:45:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Azza

Scenario:-

An employee falls to the ground but does not injure herself in anyway. A first aider attends the scene to confirm no injury occurred.

I have my own thoughts on this but have a colleague who disagrees with me.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
A
NickH  
#2 Posted : 14 September 2012 15:49:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
NickH

It is not necessarily the case that an accident automatically leads to injury.

From the limited information you have provided, I would suggest that this was such an incidence - an accident that did not lead to injury.
roshqse  
#3 Posted : 14 September 2012 15:52:04(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
roshqse

Accident.

The event happened.
If she had NEARLY fell over due to tripping over something , that would be a near miss...It NEARLY happened.

An accident can also occur AND be a near miss.
Scenario:-

Vehicle reverses and knocks a stack of boxes over -- accident.
The stack NEARLY lands on someone and could have killed them -- Near miss.

Does that help?
jay  
#4 Posted : 14 September 2012 16:07:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

In our pre-defined critieria and internal reporting systems, it would have been a near miss. It is important to pre-define the criteria you use for internal reporting systems, then there is no confusion or argument, as there are various definition to it!

We use:-
Potential Hazard=A hazard is identified.

Near Miss=An “event” has occurred but nobody has been injured and no equipment etc has been damaged.

Incident=An event has occurred and there has been damage to equipment or a spill has gone beyond the point at which material can be recovered.

Accident=An event has occurred and somebody has been hurt.
Azza  
#5 Posted : 14 September 2012 16:11:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Azza

Thanks all for the replies.

I was going to record this as a near miss under the criteria there was no injury. Another Safety Manager believes this is an accident. His definition of accident is "“An unplanned, uncontrolled event which has led to or could have led to injury to people, damage to plant, machinery or the environment and/or some other loss." This is the first time Ive heard the "or could have led to injury" statement for an accident.
andybz  
#6 Posted : 14 September 2012 16:17:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
andybz

It really depends on your own definitions.

Investigation and follow-up should always be based on potential rather than actual outcome, which means the classification is not that important.

PH2  
#7 Posted : 14 September 2012 16:25:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PH2

HSG 245 - Investigating accidents and incidents. "An accident is an event that results in injury or ill health."
roshqse  
#8 Posted : 14 September 2012 16:26:07(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
roshqse

Suppose it comes down to your own choice.

To me accident is 'any undesirable event'

Near miss is 'any event that could have led to a more serious outcome'.

So a 'no injury' event could be called either?
Bob Shillabeer  
#9 Posted : 14 September 2012 16:26:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

Back in my NEBOSH study days we found the difference was one of degree. As my good old Ridleys defines an accident as follows "An accident includes any undesired circumstances which give rise to ill health or injury;damage to property, plant, products, or the environment; production losses or increased liabilities". Near miss is defined as an event that in slightly different circumstances could have resulted in an accident. This is the same definition used by HSE.
John J  
#10 Posted : 14 September 2012 18:19:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
John J

It's a non injurious event
MrsBlue  
#11 Posted : 17 September 2012 08:18:05(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

I was taught (whilst taking NEBOSH Gen Cert - about 12 years ago) the following:

Accident - injury sustained requiring first aid

Incident - damage to property

Near Miss - a happenstance

For example:

Person up a ladder falls off - hurts themselves - Accident

Ladder blows over in the wind and hits a window breaking the glass - Incident

Ladder blows over in the wind and lands on the ground - Near Miss.

I would investigate any of the above scenarios.

Rich
boblewis  
#12 Posted : 26 September 2012 11:22:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

This problem will rage on for an eternity because there are two very different approaches involved here. HSE have an actual event without injury at the root of their definition - they are looking at an event that has a potential to cause harm. The other side are looking at the potential for an event to occur - it is used thus as a measure of unsafe behaviours or situations that give a potential for harm eg moving a suspended load over a populated work area or leaving a spanner on top of a pipe at high level.

Neither is correct - they measure different things. What is important is that the organisation understands which definition is used. A behaviourist will look towards the second definition more than the first as it measuring to a degree all those buried situations that could catch the unwary or that may at some time be realised in an actual event.

The question is not whether there was an injury but rather why did the person fall and this may well include personal factors such as inattention, rushing from one job to another or physical defects in the walkway. I personally follow the latter but at the end of the day theinvestigation is the key issue not the precise definition.

Bob
walker  
#13 Posted : 26 September 2012 11:30:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

We don't have accidents - there is an implication that they are unavoidable

We have incidents which are then further sub-catagorised much as other posters have indicated
achrn  
#14 Posted : 26 September 2012 12:50:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Arron wrote:
Another Safety Manager believes this is an accident. His definition of accident is "“An unplanned, uncontrolled event which has led to or could have led to injury to people, damage to plant, machinery or the environment and/or some other loss." This is the first time Ive heard the "or could have led to injury" statement for an accident.


That's ROSPA's definition (word perfect - see http://www.rospa.com/faqs/detail.aspx?faq=255).

I don't like it as a definition - it means getting mugged while walking along the street is an accident. They apparently really mean that - see for example http://www.rospa.com/res.../rospa-safety-guide.pdf: "This is quite broad and it can include, for example, intentional injury where this was not foreseen by the injured party (for example, an assault in the course of a robbery)."

ROSPA might like violent crime to be included within their empire, but I don't think it should be an accident. That definition is too broad.
jontyjohnston  
#15 Posted : 26 September 2012 13:31:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jontyjohnston

Its a completed accident sequence irresepective of "outcome", i.e. loss or otherwise.
Azza  
#16 Posted : 26 September 2012 14:07:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Azza

Thanks everyone
NR  
#17 Posted : 27 September 2012 14:08:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NR

Accident - injury sustained requiring first aid

Incident - damage to property

Near Miss - a happenstance

What would an explosion resulting in damaged property & taking somebody's arm off be classified as?


NR  
#18 Posted : 27 September 2012 14:13:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NR

For example:

Person up a ladder falls off - hurts themselves - Accident

Ladder blows over in the wind and hits a window breaking the glass - Incident

Ladder blows over in the wind and lands on the ground - Near Miss.

I would investigate any of the above scenarios.

In examples 2 and 3 is the person still on the floor from example 1?

boblewis  
#19 Posted : 27 September 2012 22:33:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

NR

Your comments well serve to highlight the problems. I would go 1, 2 and 3 as accidents. The HSE would categorise the ladder falling close to a person as the near miss. I would see a ladder left unsecured leaning against the wall as the near miss.

Agree that ALL should be properly investigated and corrective actions taken.

Bob
Juan Carlos Arias  
#20 Posted : 28 September 2012 12:12:06(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Juan Carlos Arias

Was there any damage to the roof? If not, and considering there was not personal injury, IMO this would be a near miss and I would report it as such. I would still investigate it and the level of investigation would be in line with the potential of harm. In this case very high.

Incident= accidents & near misses (as far as I know)
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