Hi everyone - member of golf club sadly had a heart attack in the changing rooms and died. two trained first aiders (staff) assisted and carried out CPR until the ambulance arrived. its the first time this has happened the gentleman was 77 years old obviously this is not a member of staff. but got me to thinking when would a defib be a requirement or considered a 'necessity' in the workplace and does the fact that elderly golfers are members of the club come mean we should as a duty of care have a defib and trained staff?

The use of a defib will certainly increase the chance of a recovery but it is highly optimistic to think of 70% recovery rates. CPR on its own is essentialy buying time untill proffesional help arrives. Prompt use of the defib will give recovery rates of 20-30%.The chain of survival is as follows, early identification and a call for ambulance assistance-early start on CPR-early defib-early advanced care The more defibrillators in the work place and in public areas the better for all and yes you could use this kit without training if need be but training is best.

quote=P.A.]The use of a defib will certainly increase the chance of a recovery but it is highly optimistic to think of 70% recovery rates. CPR on its own is essentialy buying time untill proffesional help arrives. Prompt use of the defib will give recovery rates of 20-30%.

Think this answers the question about percentage figures:http://www.redcrossfirstaidtraining.co.uk/News/March-2012/Your-questions-answered.aspx I teach BLS to electricians an others for Confined spaces . However Ive carried out in my lifettime CPR 6 times outside of work and 2 survived 4 didnt. Im sure the others didnt survive not because I didnt have a defib with me but because their were complications like one of the heart valves was ruptured. Chain of survival is the key here. Yes in terms of best practice a defib on site is a welcome thing but dont think its the be all and end all to removing the trauma of dealing with an MI for the person attempting resucitation.

I don’t wish to ‘muddy the waters’ but in my opinion the decision to employ a Defib has a lot to do with your ‘target audience’. A year ago a (largely sedentary) member of staff suffered a heart attack. Because our organisation is aligned with medical research a number of staff voiced the opinion that we should have an AED. Rather than jumping straight in and buying one I researched the topic, as best as I could. and came to the opinion (rightly or wrongly) that our staff did not fit the risk profile of those who would benefit from an AED. As far as I can see there are a number of ‘types’ of person likely to be at risk that AEDs are bought for and may be of benefit to: 1. Active young/ teens (school children) with an undiagnosed heart problem 2. The immediate post school group (university students and the like) involved in active sports (as part of their course or hobby) again with an undiagnosed heart problem. 3. Electricians and the like (those that are likely to have their hearts stopped as an accidental part of their work) 4. Those of deteriorating health (including old age) Now at first glance we are looking at an age bracket 5 – 105! Which would demand immediate need for an AED, but when applied to our staff: a. Mainly 20 ~ 40 year olds b. Sedentary c. Managed electricals Now I may appear cold (and un-needing of an AED!) but I envisage in 5 years’ time someone having to justify the costs for a piece of equipment that was gathering dust and needing consumables and staff trained. As part of my research I also looked at ‘bystander trauma’ and felt, unfortunately, that ‘a one year on’ survival outcome appears to be very similar with or without an AED and that those offering treatment will always feel they could have done more. As learned colleagues (above) have alluded to, sometimes the purchase of an AED is as much to do with what is politically correct. It may be politically correct for you to invest in an AED considering the establishment is involved in public facing entertainment with a demographic skewed towards an elderly (and likely influential) clientele. I consider your case slightly different to mine in that you may have (pt.3) electricians willing to push the limits of a risk assessment (“yes I was working outside, but it had only just started raining M’lud!”), a large number of clients (non-staff) that fall into the (pt4) category that you would like to “do right by”. However, if the problem occurs “out at the ninth!” is an AED going to get there within the ‘golden’ five minutes? Rich

I have to say I disagree wiht that statement, I don't think there are any moral duties / or best practice to provide them. They are expensive, not just the initial cost but also batteries, maintenance, etc. And before anyone shouts at me cost does come into it otherwise we'd all have trained doctors on site! But my main concern is the false expectation that they give. People think that it's the be all and end all and that it means someone will survive. That's not the case. I'm not convinced about the validity of that 70% success rate.