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Liability for damage when grass verge cutting
Rank: New forum user
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Comments please. Whilst driving along a country road my windscreen was smashed (not just chipped) by council grass verge cutting operations on the opposite side of the road. I submitted a claim for the £75 insurance excess only to eventually receive the following reply from the councils claims handlers:
“There is no absolute liability upon our clients ……. providing our clients can confirm that they have taken all reasonable measures and precautions. Specifically they ensure that operatives check the equipment and that any obvious stones and debris are removed from the area prior to commencement of mowing”.
I am disputing this and have requested copies of: Procedures; RAs; Incident investigation report; check-lists; etc. The claims handlers apparently are not in possession of any of these so have come to their “go away” conclusion without reviewing essential information. I also doubt that they are aware of HSE Agriculture Information Sheet No. 25 (Safe use of agricultural mowers) which recognises the danger presented by flying debris and damaged machine parts.
Is their defence flawed? Even if they have procedures and followed them this would surely minimise the risk to the general public and not eliminate it. If it had been a pedestrian, cyclist or motor cyclist that had been hit instead of my windscreen there could have been a fatality. Is damage or injury in this way without any kind of liability?
Thank you.
Barry.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I presume that you have evidence - not just opinion - that the damage was caused by the verge cutting operation?
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Rank: Super forum user
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I presume that you have evidence - not just opinion - that the damage was caused by the verge cutting operation?
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Rank: New forum user
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It happened as I was passing the grass cutter. Nothing else on the road. No trees overhead. Impact sight about 60 x 30 mm over which the top layer of glass was remover, severe cracking extending from this and glass inside the car.
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Rank: Super forum user
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You could try the "small claims" court procedure - if you win, the other side also has to pay you back the small court fee. You might have to show beyond reasonable doubt that their action caused the breakage.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Pikeman wrote:You could try the "small claims" court procedure - if you win, the other side also has to pay you back the small court fee. You might have to show beyond reasonable doubt that their action caused the breakage.
It would be on the "Balance of Probabilities" - a much lower burden of proof than BRD which is reserved for criminal matters.
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Rank: Super forum user
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quote=BarrySC]It happened as I was passing the grass cutter. Nothing else on the road. No trees overhead. Impact sight about 60 x 30 mm over which the top layer of glass was remover, severe cracking extending from this and glass inside the car.
I don't know if that provides evidence - it seems entirely circumstantial - so do expect to be challenged if you try to go forward.
It is interesting, isn't it, how convinced we can be on the validity of our own claim, bullishly requesting "copies of: Procedures; RAs; Incident investigation report; check-lists; etc. The claims handlers apparently are not in possession of any of these so have come to their “go away” conclusion without reviewing essential information. I also doubt that they are aware of HSE Agriculture Information Sheet No. 25 (Safe use of agricultural mowers) which recognises the danger presented by flying debris and damaged machine parts" etc etc
Contrast this with the many posts here which are at times viciously critical of the temerity of accident 'victims' who dare as employees to claim against the company insurance. He probably have hurt his back at home, or on the golf course, rather than at work, it was a pre-existing injury and not our fault that he aggravated it by working for us, he didn't report it so it didn't happen, he didn't take time off until 5 days later so it's definitely not our fault..... are all common criticisms. They do chime with your own circumstance of claim.
I suppose in every case it comes down to prove it, or at least make such a nuisance that its easier to pay off rather than defend the claim.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Ian.Blenkharn wrote:
I suppose in every case it comes down to prove it, or at least make such a nuisance that its easier to pay off rather than defend the claim.
Have to agree :(
I lost a windscreen on a random road via a random stone - it happens - country roads are good fun aren't they.
However my friends windscreen had an actual golf ball stuck init and so :)
I assume police were notified - what did they say / do?
Was it direct impact from a cutter and could they have guarded this? or was it debris on the road kicked up by car in front?
It's so difficult to comment without lots more info
if you feel there is a claim then put one in.
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Rank: New forum user
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Thank you everyone for your comments. I agree that windscreen damage can happen from random stones thrown up by other road users. There was no other traffic. I’ve already submitted a claim for my insurance excess (back in May when this occurred) but this is not why I have raised it here.
The council / claims handlers are not denying that their actions caused the damage. They simply say that because they took reasonable precautions and have procedures they are not liable for anything that happens. So firstly I want to warn other road users (yes, I would have expected better guarding) and secondly try and look at it in the following scenario: A van driven by Company A employee damages property of company X due a mechanical failure (not driver error). Cost to repair the damage is £3000. Company A (or its insurers) does not have to pay for the repairs because A has documented evidence that it has taken reasonable measures and precautions to ensure that the vehicle was properly maintained. I’m not sure that it would be that simple.
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Rank: Super forum user
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No, I don’t think that their defence is flawed! The defence if having done all that is reasonable, is a common and often accepted defence.
That AIS 25 recognises the danger from debris etc doesn’t provide you with a claim for automatic liability! I think it is reasonably likely that this was related to the use of the ‘flail’ rather than some other ‘random’ event. You have not indicated that the accident was due to a damaged machine part flying off from the ‘flail’ or whatever, and I, like most have probably assumed that this is more likely to have been from a stone or other piece of debris ‘hidden’ in the verge.
Surely you recognise that the operator can’t realistically ensure absolute safety when carrying out such an operation but that rather they have to try and ensure that they have taken all REASONABLE measures? In practical terms this couldn’t possibly extend to and inch by inch examination of the verge prior to verge cutting; the ‘cost’ would be prohibitive.
Similarly, I would also hope that you recognise (although this is not apparent) that although they MAY have caused the damage, that they aren’t necessarily liable for the damage?
I am not quite sure if your example is necessarily pertinent or relevant. Again, you now seem to be saying that the, whatever it was that damaged your screen, was as the result of some kind of mechanical failure. Unless you can prove that it was, I would think that it is much more likely to be a stone or other piece of debris.
Again, it is difficult to know whether an investigation would reveal anything to your ‘benefit’. If there is a piece of the equipment ‘missing’ how could they determine whether it did come off and hit your screen (unless you have it cunningly stashed away somewhere) or whether it came off 3 miles down the road and be lying somewhere ‘harmlessly’ in the verge.
Every time I pass a verge or hedge cutter I think “oh oh”; so far I have escaped any significant damage to my car, but I also recognise that there is a chance that one day I could get ‘dinked’ by something.
I am not sure if your expectation is entirely realistic.
Where there’s blame there’s a claim, especially if it’s a Council!
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Rank: Super forum user
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Persistence is the key here. With boot on other foot, wouldn't you resist your claim?
The documents you need will be made available to you by making a freedom of information request to the Authority (no their Insurers).
Armed with that info, you will then be in a position to make a substantiated claim (or not, as the case may be)
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Liability for damage when grass verge cutting
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