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Gas cooker SAFE installation ?
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pdurkin  
#1 Posted : 26 September 2012 16:12:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
pdurkin
Hi All,
My 90 years young mother (220 miles away) has had a Gas Safe installer refuse to install a replacement gas cooker?
Why? Because although it has been there for 13 years they NOW consider the wooden back wall panels to be a fire risk. The new cooker is the same design as the original i.e. eye level grill, hence there is a fixed
back to the hob. Risk assessment not withstanding, is there any treatment (apart from removal) I can get done to these panels to satisfy the installer?
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walker  
#2 Posted : 26 September 2012 16:23:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker
Can you appeal/ demand a second opinion ?

Sounds a bit OTT to me.
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achrn  
#3 Posted : 26 September 2012 16:32:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn
Surely it's not a surprise that acceptable standards change. What was allowed 13 years ago may well now be deemed unsafe. 13 years ago I was allowed to rewire my house without telling a soul, now it's not safe (apparently).

Not so long before that asbestos was a wonder material and smoking was good for your lungs.
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townshend1012  
#4 Posted : 26 September 2012 16:46:34(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
townshend1012
Would it not be possible to replace the wooden panels with a zero rated panel (fire resistant). I had a similar situation in a house I purchased whereby the panel which closed off the fireplace aperture behind a wood-burner was, yes you guessed it - plywood. I replaced this with a fire resistant panel. Not wishing to promote any products, you can easily find something suitable on the web. Some of the larger builders merchants stock them.
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bob youel  
#5 Posted : 27 September 2012 07:15:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel
you can get very good fire resistant paint that is good enough for industry so should be good enough in this case
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walker  
#6 Posted : 27 September 2012 08:15:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker
I still think the installer is doing a bit of personal gold plating of the regs.

Otherwise virtually every home in the UK needs to replace the wooden worktops that gas hobs are built into or are adjacent to the cooker.
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johnmurray  
#7 Posted : 27 September 2012 09:04:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray
They may well need to.
If the present installation fails to meet present regulations the engineer may well disconnect the installation.
I think they call for a 700mm clearance at the top between the cooker and combustible materials and 20mm clearance at the sides...
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johnmurray  
#8 Posted : 27 September 2012 09:09:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray
And the engineer who installed my present cooker had to install a cooker restraint to prevent strain being put on the gas hose if the cooker was slid-out....and removed a cupboard above the cooker because it was within the then 600mm distance....
The lord forbid you have to have a high-efficiency heater installed......
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Graham Bullough  
#9 Posted : 27 September 2012 09:48:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough
pdurkin

If the new cooker is of the same design as the one it is replacing and similarly emits a limited amount of heat through its sides and back, there’s probably no problem. As walker at #6 has pointed out, there are many gas cookers in UK households which are located within or closely adjacent to panelling made of wood or chipboard and don’t seem to be posing any problem. This applies to my own cooker, a free-standing one with eye-level grill, which has been located within a slot within fixed kitchen units for more than 20 years. Despite regular use of its oven over that time the laminated faces of the chipboard panels forming the slot show no sign of deterioration due to heat from the cooker sides. Therefore, I guess that either the cooker sides don’t become hot enough to emit sufficient heat to cause thermal degradation and/or the 25mm (1inch) wide air gaps between the cooker sides and the chipboard panels are sufficient to allow effective dissipation of the heat.

Another aspect of this matter is that though wood and chipboard are combustible and will ignite if subject to a sufficient amount of heat, they seem to behave as insulators when exposed to lesser amounts of heat. The same also seems to apply to the plastic laminate coating of chipboard panels used in kitchens, etc. This might explain why incidents involving ignition of such panels by heat from cookers are apparently rare or perhaps unknown. However, as my information and perceptions about this topic may be inadequate, I’d welcome clarification or correction from those with better knowledge and experience.

As it’s possible that installers can vary in their interpretation of the relevant regulations, perhaps one way of tackling this matter is for your mother to try asking one or more other installers about doing the work!
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Invictus  
#10 Posted : 27 September 2012 09:54:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus
Maybe he is working within the approved code of practice, what would happen if something happened to your mother, who would you look to to have provided you with the correct information. Is he telling you that he is the only one who can provide the service or is he just advising that's what needs to happen? Did you pick this contractor because he was qualified? Why get a second opinion, get the job done and get the cooker fitted.
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pdurkin  
#11 Posted : 27 September 2012 16:49:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
pdurkin
Thanks all particularly Graham.
For clarification, my mother purchased the new cooker from a supplier that included the full package removal;installation & disposal(most do).This has now all been refunded. However, she still needs to cook. My grandson lives nearby & could if necessary remove the wood panels but not capable of the tiling to make good. hence my request concerning a FR treatment !! But will this convince a Gas Safe engineer ?? Should I get some guidance / approval from the local (S.Wales) fire authority? Yup it is a free standing one with eye level grill. Also it is on the first floor of a two story flat.
Regards,Paul.
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Clairel  
#12 Posted : 27 September 2012 17:07:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel
pdurkin - the fire authorities are not gas safe engineers (and as we all know aren't necessarily any good at FRA's either!)

I can have some sympathy with the gas engineer even though I understand Graham's point about actual risk. He's the one who could end up in the doc if something happended.

Just becuase something was put in 20 yrs ago doesn't mean it meets the standard now. It's the same for many things, including building and electrics. Many houses fall way short of current regs, which is fine until something needs to be done (eg, convert a loft space) then it needs to comply with the current regs not the regs from when it was first built.

How about ringing up someone like British Gas and asking their advice?
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boblewis  
#13 Posted : 27 September 2012 22:49:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis
Talk to the HSE as they enforce the regulations. All new installations must comply, existing installations should be brought up to scratch at the next new installation. Easiest solution is cementitious sheet.

Bob
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jfw  
#14 Posted : 28 September 2012 00:29:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jfw
quote=pdurkin] Should I get some guidance / approval from the local (S.Wales) fire authority? Yup it is a free standing one with eye level grill.


It sounds like you might have come across the same installation engineer my mother-in-law did a few months back, if it was the retailer starting with the letters "Co", if you are in S.Wales.

I bought her a new free standing gas oven with high level grill to replace her old one. The installation engineer refused to fit it because the location did not meet the "Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations".

He gave the reason that there were flammable items in the specified zone behind and above the burners and grill. These items were uPVC window sills either side of the cooker, curtains in the windows and electrical sockets on the wall behind the cooker.

The engineer told me over the phone it could only be fitted if the electrical sockets are blanked with metal plates, the curtains removed and the window sills replaced with a non-flammable material. He told me that no Gas Safe registered installer would fit it in the location. He said the old one was OK as it was an existing installation, but that a new one could not be fitted.

I looked up the regs and he was right, there were flammable items in the zones around where the cooker would be installed.

He offered to either take it away for a full refund or to leave the new cooker without installing it. He then went on to say that if he left the cooker un-installed, he would have to report this to the authorities, because if it was installed without the flammable items removed, it would be an illegal installation. He also scared my in-laws by then telling them if it is installed without the flammable items being removed, it will invalidate their house insurance.

Opted for the full refund and bought an electric over from the other retailer that starts with a "C". Got a full refund including the installation, but got to keep my Nectar points !

She's now cooking with electricity for the first time in 80 years and now owns her first toaster. The engineer from the other retailer who installed the electric oven also confirmed that a new gas cooker could not be installed in that location.

For info, the exclusion zones are :-

For hobs, there is an exclusion zone that extends over the hob and a further 50 mm horizontally in every direction along the work surface, and upwards for 760 mm. In this zone, there may be no combustible materials. This usually means there is almost no margin for positioning the hob to avoid the wall cupboards each side. Note that as of autumn 2004 if you fit a 700mm wide hob (usually 5 burner units) then you must have at least 700mm gap or "bridge" in any wall cupboards.

For cookers the zone is 20 mm side clearance on the lower part of the cooker (oven sides) and then 150 mm each side for the top part of the cooker (above the level of the burners and pan supports). The upper zone extends vertically to either 610 mm above the top of the cooker if it has an eye-level grill, or 760 mm if the highest point is the hob burners
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walker  
#15 Posted : 28 September 2012 08:27:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker
JFW - intersting post

I'm not competent to comment on most of what you say but I am competent to say that electrical sockets certainly are not flammable nor remotely combustable.
Also most uPVC ( I think by law) has a fire retardant so that will not be either I imagine.
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pdurkin  
#16 Posted : 28 September 2012 12:34:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
pdurkin
Thanks JFW,
Phew, more complicated than planning regs.
The old one was left connected, so old equipment obviously has less risk !!!!!
Seems my mother's best bet is to get her existing one serviced / burners replaced.
Small wonder people blame H&S !!!
Regards,Paul
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Rob M  
#17 Posted : 28 September 2012 12:46:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Rob M
Remedial action could be intumescent paint or a fire barrier, wh have the same problens with old trains and catering equipment
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Ron Hunter  
#18 Posted : 28 September 2012 13:29:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter
Overclad the wood with a local cement panel. Job done.
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pdurkin  
#19 Posted : 05 October 2012 17:21:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
pdurkin
Oh, I wish for a simpler life when retired; NO CHANCE.
To find the answer:
1/ I contacted HSE (Wales) gas safety, who referred me to:
2/ Gas Safe technical dept, who referred me to:
3/ The manufacturer who reffered me to:
4/ The supplier who? you guessed it referred me to the manufacturer.
Then I had a brain wave, why not get a local Gas Safe engineer to call before I do anything.
Yes, I found one who lives in my mother's small Welsh village, so that is my solution. What he / she states, I do.
Also, I now have the manual which only advises a 10mm gap between the cooker & units.
NO MENTION OF FIRE SAFETY !!!
New gas cookers are safer than the old ones i.e. cut outs etc !!!
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DaisyMaisy  
#20 Posted : 06 October 2012 09:43:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DaisyMaisy
I had this same problem - I ordered the cooker waited 3 weeks it was delivered and they refused to install it for exactly the same reason. their answer was to tile the area around the cooker which I had done at limited cost - bought some end of the range tiles and someone local tiled part of the wall behind and to the side of the cooker.
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Graham Bullough  
#21 Posted : 06 October 2012 11:03:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough
Paul

Didn't a responder at #9 conclude by suggesting that your Mum try asking one or more other installers? Anyhow, I guess that followers of this thread hope that the matter is resolved soon for your mother, and also that you'll let us know in due course how it is resolved.

Your thread draws attention to what may a widespread problem for many people who want gas cookers installing in their homes: Either some or many installers are insisting on unnecessary work to the isntallation locations by spuriously citing fire safety as the reason and thus causing unnecessary distress, delay and expense for such people. On the other hand, IF some circumstances can arise in which the heat emitted from the sides of gas cookers DOES pose a significant risk of igniting adjacent materials despite an intervening air gap of at least 10mm, why don't the makers of cookers plus other relevant organisations make it clear to customers and installers what sorts of precautions are needed to counter the risk?!!!
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IanDakin  
#22 Posted : 09 October 2012 13:02:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
IanDakin
Pdurkin

The quickest option would be to do what you eventually did, which was look at the manual and contact a professional.

Posting here does prove one thing though - safety professionals are full of advice. In general though, they are not gas engineers!

It is nothing new though, to have to have certain levels of protection of flammable surfaces from gas burners/heat sources. I worked as a gas engineer throughout the 80s and we had similar rules then.

Ian
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Graham Bullough  
#23 Posted : 19 November 2012 13:39:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough
Last Friday while a Gas Safe registered engineer was carrying out an annual service & check of my central heating boiler at home I took the opportunity to ask him about gas cooker installations. He said that free-standing gas cookers can generally be pushed/slotted into recesses within conventional kitchen worktop units made of combustible wood or chipboard PROVIDED that an air gap of at least 20mm will exist between the lower parts of the cooker body (oven compartment) and the adjacent vertical panels of the worktop units. If such gaps are available, there is NO need for such panels to be clad or replaced with metal, ceramic tiles or any other heat-resistant or reflective material.

The engineer added that it was crucial that the surfaces and edges of worktops adjacent to cookers should not be higher than the tops of the cookers. This was because they could be readily ignited by the heat from the flames of gas burners. This is especially so when a largish pan is placed on top of a burner and deflects a notable amount of heat sideways. Also, for cookers with eye-level grills, it's essential that prescribed air gaps (long-established and well-known) exist above and to the sides of such grills.

Also, the engineer wasn't aware of any changes in recent years to the minimum specifications for installing new or pre-used gas cookers. He said that if a risk of panels being ignited by heat from cookers did exist, their surfaces would tend to show visible signs of discoloration and scorching. Also, there's no known history of incidents involving panels being ignited by heat from cookers. If such a history did exist Gas Safe (and previously Corgi) would publicise it to registered installers in order to reinforce why they should observe minimum standards. (By contrast the engineer confirmed that the topic of inspection hatches or other means of allowing visual inspections of flues within enclosed spaces or ducts, etc within buildings had received considerable publicity for the past year or more.)

The information in this response is simply based on my recent conversation with one engineer, albeit a highly experienced one who to me has appeared competent from when I started using him over 8 years ago. Therefore, have any other forum users discussed cooker installations with registered installers and what did they say about requirements?

p.s. pdurkin - hope the situation for your mother was resolved fairly swiftly after your posting #19 in early October. Also, if other forum users are able to respond with information which accords with mine above, your thread should enable forum users faced with similar situations to avoid the hassle and cost of unnecessary work!
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pdurkin  
#24 Posted : 21 November 2012 12:30:12(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
pdurkin
Thanks All,
Again particularly Graham.
Sorry, I have not reported earlier, but yes the deed is done & by the local Gas Safe bloke.
His only insistance was that the hop level be higher than the adjacent unit. He had considered a metal strip but he did not bring it, hence this was not fitted (no evidence of previous burns).
Thanks again , the cooker is working & my 90 yo mother can cook again.
p.s. The old one was removed almost as soon as we had put it outside, hence ended up saving my mother money.
Another good example of local rather than National.
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